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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense (Read 96315 times)
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #19 - 07/05/12 at 18:56:33
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Sloughter, when you take a step back, which side would you rather play if money were riding on the result, and why?
  
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sloughter
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #18 - 07/05/12 at 18:29:17
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mangler wrote on 06/08/12 at 00:56:49:
Hope your computer is fixed soon. PC problems are no fun.

After 17 Kd1, Fritz gives 17...Ne3 as mate in 8. And if Black can't find the mate, then he has other moves like 17...Qb6 or 17...Qd7 (instead of your 17...Bc4) that leave Black with a +4 advantage.


Got my Fritz 12 up and running. Just when I thought every reasonable try had been exhausted, a major one shows up. 8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O Bg4 (O-O will be dealt with next) 10.Bxc6ch Kf8 11.Bxa8 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 h6 13.Ne4 Nc6 14.c3 f5 15.Ng3 g6 & there are a lot of candidate moves e.g. 16.Rd1, Re1, h3, Nd2 or b4.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #17 - 06/09/12 at 12:55:26
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Markovich wrote on 06/08/12 at 01:28:44:
Dear sloughter, leaving aside the specifics, something is wrong with your chess judgment if you would consider playing into this. When I said "too slow," I was expressing my view that b2-b4 does not answer White's urgent need for activity.

I think Markovich has hit it on the head, why just are you laying such considerable effort trying to make such a dud line work?...and perhaps even worse are you really suggesting that Queen to f3 to c6 to c4 to b3 to b2 in the space of seven moves in one case and  Queen to f3 to c6 to c4 to d3 in the space of six moves in another case is playable let alone sound? I really have to wonder because….

sloughter wrote on 06/08/12 at 05:05:26:
8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.b4 Rc8 13.Qd3 Bxb4 14.Ne4 with about an equal position.

Is an equal position? White has to move his queen at least two more times after say 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Bc5 16.0–0 (6.Ba3 Bc6 17.Qe2 Bd4) Bc6 17.Qg4 f5 18.Qh3 for argument sake. Any good chess coach should be able to tell you “Under development or a complete lack there of is often fatal” but even so my opinion is 12... Rc8 is not the only option in dealing with your idea, what about 12… Rb8 ?
12.b4 Rb8 13.a3 (13.c3?? Bb5 14.Qb3 Bd3–+; 13.Ba3?! Nh5 14.Nf3 Bb5 15.Qg4 Nf4 (15...Nf6) ) 13...Bb5 14.Qh4 (14.Qa2?! Nd5 15.Ne4 (15.c4? Bxc4 16.Qxc4 Rc8; 15.Nf3 Bxb4) 15...Bxb4! 16.Bb2 (16.axb4?? Nxb4 17.Qb2?? Bd3) ; 14.Qb3? Qd4 15.Bb2 (15.Nc3 Bc4 16.Nf3 (16.Qb2 Bc5! ) 16...Qg4 17.Nxe5 Qxg2) 15...Qg4!) 14...h6 15.Ne4 Nd5 16.Qg3 f5

And finally, I don’t won’t to dent your enthusiasm for opening investigation and all that but there is a reason Bogoljubow’s variation has been considered largely unpopular since the 1980's  and this thread does rather illustrate why. You simply can’t thrash your Queen around the board in this day and age and with out good reason and expect to get away with it, the modern dedicated player is simply to good for that sort of thing. Of the 3 pre-internet and 3 post-internet books I have on the Two Knights, they all infer the same thing, 8... Be7 is little more than an historical curiosity, interesting in another words, and should not provide to much for worry Black. Sorry 8O(
Thanks
HTH
Sad
« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 22:36:00 by Hadron »  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #16 - 06/08/12 at 05:05:26
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Markovich wrote on 06/07/12 at 02:30:16:
Too slow.


8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.b4 Rc8 13.Qd3 Bxb4 14.Ne4 with about an equal position.
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #15 - 06/08/12 at 01:28:44
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Dear sloughter, leaving aside the specifics, something is wrong with your chess judgment if you would consider playing into this. When I said "too slow," I was expressing my view that b2-b4 does not answer White's urgent need for activity. I am happy to see that the specifics bear me out, but anyone's chess sense should tell them that White is in deep trouble if he is so far behind in activity and pushing queenside pawns, of all things.

I really think it would benefit your chess if you became a bloodthirsty gambiteer for awhile. Activity is paramount in chess, and playing sytems like the Two Knights can help a developing player to understand why.
  

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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #14 - 06/08/12 at 00:56:49
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Hope your computer is fixed soon. PC problems are no fun.

After 17 Kd1, Fritz gives 17...Ne3 as mate in 8. And if Black can't find the mate, then he has other moves like 17...Qb6 or 17...Qd7 (instead of your 17...Bc4) that leave Black with a +4 advantage.
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #13 - 06/07/12 at 20:26:58
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micawber wrote on 06/07/12 at 18:03:48:
@Markovich
I dont mind specific lines.
I do not like specific lines that are heaped upon me
that have not been thought over.
(I dont like novels consisting of randomly typed words either Wink )

@sloughter
Okay one reply and then I leave you to your own devices.
In your last line:
iso 15...Qb6?!
15.....Rc4! and because of the threat (...Re4+)
16.0-0 is necessary (16.Nc3,Rxb4 17.Qa3,Re4+ -/+)
After16.... Rxb4  Black certainly isn't lacking compensation
for his one-pawn deficit.


First of all this is the most dynamic way to meet the threat of having my Queen kicked all over the board. No one has been able to demonstrate a quick kill so b4 is thematic to fight for control of the center. All other choices allow Black to build up a sizeable initiative. Can anyone find 12.b4 in any games or any analysis?

In the given position why can't White ignore the threatened check? 15...Rc4 16.a3 Re4ch 17.Kd1 Bc4 18.Nc3 +/-

My apologies for the heaped on lines; my chess computer is down & I can't check the variations
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #12 - 06/07/12 at 18:03:48
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@Markovich
I dont mind specific lines.
I do not like specific lines that are heaped upon me
that have not been thought over.
(I dont like novels consisting of randomly typed words either Wink )

@sloughter
Okay one reply and then I leave you to your own devices.
In your last line:
iso 15...Qb6?!
15.....Rc4! and because of the threat (...Re4+)
16.0-0 is necessary (16.Nc3,Rxb4 17.Qa3,Re4+ -/+)
After16.... Rxb4  Black certainly isn't lacking compensation
for his one-pawn deficit.
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #11 - 06/07/12 at 17:18:02
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micawber wrote on 06/07/12 at 15:22:39:
@sloughter
I think you should do some thinking first,
before overloading us with imo rather insignificant variations.
Youre last try 11.b4, Bxc6 seems rather convincing for black.

And if 11.Qc4,0-0 12.b4?!,Rc8 13.Qb3
Then 13....Ng4! seems the way for black to develop his initiative.




8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.b4 Rc8 13.Qb3 Ng4 14.Nh3 Be6 15.Qb2 Qb6 16.Ba3 Bd5 17.Rg1 Nxh2 18.Nc3 Be6 19.O-O-O Bxh3 20.gxh3 Qxf2 21.Nd5 Bd6 22.Ne3 & I prefer White
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #10 - 06/07/12 at 16:57:03
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Oh I don't know.  I don't think it should bother us too much if someone posts specific ideas here.  But these particular ideas fail to strengthen White's case.
  

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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #9 - 06/07/12 at 15:22:39
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@sloughter
I think you should do some thinking first,
before overloading us with imo rather insignificant variations.
Youre last try 11.b4, Bxc6 seems rather convincing for black.

And if 11.Qc4,0-0 12.b4?!,Rc8 13.Qb3
Then 13....Ng4! seems the way for black to develop his initiative.
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #8 - 06/07/12 at 14:43:09
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Markovich wrote on 06/07/12 at 02:30:16:
Too slow.


Another try is 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.b4 Rc8 12.Qb3 Nh5 13.h4 & if h6 14.Nh3 or 13.h4 Nf4 14.g3 Ng2ch 15.Kf1 Bc6 16.Rh2
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #7 - 06/07/12 at 03:23:10
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Markovich wrote on 06/07/12 at 02:30:16:
Too slow.


Too slow is correct. White should play more normally with 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.b4 Rc8 13.Qb3 h6 14.Nf3 e4 15.Nd4 & White defends.
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #6 - 06/07/12 at 02:54:05
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Markovich wrote on 06/07/12 at 02:30:16:
Too slow.


White frees his b2 square for the Queen; White should meet 16...Qb6 with c3 preparing to defend along the second. White has to fight for space. b4 is the most aggressive pawn move available to White permitting the Queen to not be trapped in the center. Where are the threats?
  
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #5 - 06/07/12 at 02:30:16
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Too slow.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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