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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (Read 17967 times)
GMEricPrie
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #18 - 11/29/12 at 16:32:40
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To Summarize :

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c5 6.d5
is the Kaulich defense of the BDG

4...c5 is the Brombacher Counter-gambit which transposes into the Kaulich after the expected 5.d5 exf3 6.Nxf3

Is there a specific name for 6.Qxf3 then or is this the original continuation of the Brombacher Counter-gambit ?!

Otherwise, I fail to see any difference between the Kaulich and Brombacher!
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #17 - 11/29/12 at 14:26:33
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It strikes me that this is a line of the Albin Counter-Gambit (1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 f6), with colours reversed and with an extra tempo for White.  5...f6 is not one of Black's better moves in that line of the Albin, but even so, I think the extra tempo must surely change the assessment to at least equal for White.
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #16 - 11/29/12 at 11:34:16
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According to Leisebein too, this is the Brombacher's counter gambit. He cites a game Diemer,E-Brombacher/Kandern 1949 where it begins with 4..c5 5.d5 exf3 6.Nxf3 a6 7.a4 etc. If you play 6..g6 instead, you can get this position from the Bogoljubov defense too (4..exf3 5.Nxf3 g6), where Black can play ..c5 later but that's not so common to play the Bogoljubov defense like this.
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #15 - 11/28/12 at 23:58:08
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Google, Scheerer and some other books say: "Brombacher counter gambit" (don't ask me why, maybe something to do with it being played in Brombach, Germany)
Some databases say Bogoljubov played 4...c5 against Diemer in South Baden 1948. Maybe someone knows an earlier game?
Gedult actually preferred 5.Bf4 as does Scheerer.
After 5.d5, 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 transposes to the Kaulich defence.
There's also 1.d4 d5 2.e4 c5 3.Bf4 with a direct transposition to the Morris gambit (in this move-order White has a better move).

GMEricPrie wrote on 11/28/12 at 16:26:43:
Anyone knows the name of this BDG line : 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c5 and 5.d5 I reckon then must be the main (if not only) move ?
Afterwards 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 g6 ?
And 7.Bf4 may not be best for it does not threat Nb5 in this move order but it actually transposes into the Morris gambit!

Also, is there a name as early as this stage attached to 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f3?! and then 3...c5 4.e4 (following  4...cxd4! 5.Qxd4 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.Bxc6 Bxc6 8.e5 Nd7!) The idea is that 4...dxe4?! transposes in this case...

  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #14 - 11/28/12 at 16:26:43
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Anyone knows the name of this BDG line : 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c5 and 5.d5 I reckon then must be the main (if not only) move ?
Afterwards 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 g6 ?
And 7.Bf4 may not be best for it does not threat Nb5 in this move order but it actually transposes into the Morris gambit!

Also, is there a name as early as this stage attached to 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f3?! and then 3...c5 4.e4 (following  4...cxd4! 5.Qxd4 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.Bxc6 Bxc6 8.e5 Nd7!) The idea is that 4...dxe4?! transposes in this case...
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #13 - 09/12/12 at 02:25:45
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Against 5. Bf4, Aveskulov suggests 5...Nc6 6. c3 e6 7. Qc2 f5! 8. 0-0-0 Bd6 in his new book "Attack with Black"
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #12 - 09/07/12 at 05:17:35
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I agree with Glenn Snow that 5.Be3 is best in the Hübsch Gambit.
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #11 - 09/06/12 at 18:49:53
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The Hubsch is no major problem for the blackmar diemer, you are removing a k side defender with a queenside piece.  Black will have a hard time hold against any white moves after the exchange. 

I do not trust moving the bishop off of c4, you are just wasting time.  Instead on the 8th move, just play f3 or castle q side.  Any gambit is a battle for time, the bishop on c4 has been blunted by e6 already, there is no reason to keep it especially to trade it for blacks only developed piece.
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #10 - 08/10/12 at 12:45:12
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Why do you think I do not play the Hubsch over-the-board? Because I do not trust it.
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #9 - 07/24/12 at 10:56:15
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Eric Diemerophile wrote on 07/22/12 at 17:43:54:
To Gambit, the 5.Bf4 is clearly a different way as the classical Bc4. And every plan should differ from Black and White side, I think a draw with a perfect play is the natural result.

To Glen Snow, the 5.Be3 variation is to me better for Black each time Black will use a Fianchetto. And just for this slow move, I dislike it !

Dear GM, what I think is that your opponent facilitates you to demonstrate you choose the good defense. But... certainly 6.f3, 6.c3, 6.Nh3 and 6.Ne2 have to be preferred ! Geigel made a too slow move according to me due to the wish to make long castling. And what we see in your game is that your Knight succeded alone to punish both Bc4 and Be3 to play inaccurately... and to protect the pawn more.

And much better, your opponent surprisingly decided to win pawns on the white shelter side, where your pieces can react with energy quickly. The Queen trap is finally just for fun. But yes at this moment white was already lost.

I am sorry, but I cannot accept to let Black thinking it is a bad opening for white only by this game. White has misunderstood the opening... from almost the starting of the game !!! White didn't plan as he must have to do. His rated level was nice (to me) but he was maybe impressed by having first started such a tournament by the future winner !


To be honest I'm pretty skeptical about White's chances no matter what he plays but I'd still argue that at this point 5.Be3 is the best way to drum up compensation while avoiding simplification.  If Black fianchettos with 5...g6 then Scheerer in his "the Blackmar-Diemer gambit" offers 6.f3 exf3 7.Nxf3 Bg7 8.Bc4 0-0 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Qe1.  I'm not sure why White couldn't meet ...g6 the same way he does with 5.Bf4, e.g., 5...g6 6.Qd2 Bg7 7.0-0-0 0-0 8.Bh6 is one obvious variation that could come from other move orders.  5.Bf4 also has the annoying 5...e6 6.0-0-0 Nc6! variation to contend with.
  
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Eric Diemerophile
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #8 - 07/22/12 at 17:43:54
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To Gambit, the 5.Bf4 is clearly a different way as the classical Bc4. And every plan should differ from Black and White side, I think a draw with a perfect play is the natural result.

To Glen Snow, the 5.Be3 variation is to me better for Black each time Black will use a Fianchetto. And just for this slow move, I dislike it !

Dear GM, what I think is that your opponent facilitates you to demonstrate you choose the good defense. But... certainly 6.f3, 6.c3, 6.Nh3 and 6.Ne2 have to be preferred ! Geigel made a too slow move according to me due to the wish to make long castling. And what we see in your game is that your Knight succeded alone to punish both Bc4 and Be3 to play inaccurately... and to protect the pawn more.

And much better, your opponent surprisingly decided to win pawns on the white shelter side, where your pieces can react with energy quickly. The Queen trap is finally just for fun. But yes at this moment white was already lost.

I am sorry, but I cannot accept to let Black thinking it is a bad opening for white only by this game. White has misunderstood the opening... from almost the starting of the game !!! White didn't plan as he must have to do. His rated level was nice (to me) but he was maybe impressed by having first started such a tournament by the future winner !
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #7 - 07/19/12 at 10:23:02
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Glenn Snow wrote on 07/19/12 at 03:35:07:
I thought 5.Bf4 e6 6.Qd2 (6.f3 Bd6; 6.Ne2 c5) 6...c5! was supposed to be at least a little better for Black.

I'm inclined to agree. Anyway, it was strange to play a game with Black where I thought I was equal after move two, and better after move three! Huh
I suppose that must be due to reading so many of Eric's updates - curiously he was also playing in this tournament but defaulted the first round because of a marriage (not his own).
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #6 - 07/19/12 at 03:35:07
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Gambit wrote on 07/17/12 at 07:14:02:
I think White misplayed the opening. These days,      after 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4 Nxe4 4 Nxe4 dxe4 5 Bf4  should be played. The 5 Bc4 line is too well-known and analyzed. On the other hand, 5 Bf4 stops the pesky ...e5 maneuver and prepares f2-f3 in some lines. 


What about the 5.Be3 variation?  I thought 5.Bf4 e6 6.Qd2 (6.f3 Bd6; 6.Ne2 c5) 6...c5! was supposed to be at least a little better for Black.
  
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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #5 - 07/18/12 at 07:37:38
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/14/12 at 11:06:31:
In the first round of the Montpellier Masters I was Black against the Hubsch:



Of course his 16th move is a bad blunder, but he is losing anyway. I had dinner with IM Didier Collas afterwards and he told me that he played this line all the time when he was young, and felt that White could equalise with correct play.


NICE game! Almost wish it came with a Maurice Ashley play by play...
  

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Re: Hübsch Gambit Vs. Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #4 - 07/17/12 at 07:14:02
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I think White misplayed the opening. These days,      after 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4 Nxe4 4 Nxe4 dxe4 5 Bf4  should be played. The 5 Bc4 line is too well-known and analyzed. On the other hand, 5 Bf4 stops the pesky ...e5 maneuver and prepares f2-f3 in some lines.
  
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