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Normal Topic White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line (Read 9933 times)
kylemeister
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #9 - 06/18/12 at 18:11:52
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I don't know how Black can expect to be more than equal in such a still rather generic old-fashioned Exchange position.  For example, 5. d4 ed 6. Qxd4 Qxd4 7. Nxd4 Bd7 8. Be3 0-0-0 9. Nc3 is a line that can be readily found given as equal (a couple of games cited:  Smyslov-Keres and Smyslov-Ivanchuk) -- as Black I'm not sure I would prefer that a3 and ...f6 be added, and in any case I wouldn't expect it to change the evaluation.

But maybe you are an Alekhine disciple -- I think he considered such positions to be standardly in Black's favor, rather than equal ...
  
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PANFR
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #8 - 06/18/12 at 07:36:15
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Why should Black commit himself with stuff like ...c5 and ...Bd6?
Isn't he more than equal after the simple 9...0-0-0 10.Be3 Ne7, or 10.Bf4 Bc5?
  
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Markovich
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #7 - 06/18/12 at 02:36:03
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Something is cracked when people post moves like 8.a3 with exclamation points appended to them. It doesn't pass the smell test, at least not by this nose.

White is White, so be can afford to burn a tempo. But you wouldn't catch me doing it.
  
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #6 - 06/16/12 at 15:50:01
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kylemeister wrote on 06/16/12 at 14:26:07:
Well, it would be the same position but not with the same side to move


Oops, my bad. You are right of course.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #5 - 06/16/12 at 14:26:07
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Well, it would be the same position but not with the same side to move (in one case Black spends two tempi moving his bishop somewhere, while White spends two tempi moving his knight nowhere).
For what it's worth, none of some books I looked at mentioned Black meeting 9. Be3 with 9...Bb4.

One odd bit:  ECO (3rd ed.) gave 9. f3 with the idea of Kf2 as slightly better for White, while Panczyk/Ilczuk had it (much more plausibly in my opinion) leading to equality.
  
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #4 - 06/16/12 at 06:48:00
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I suppose the reason Black sometimes plays 9.Be3 Bb4 is not that the bishop is very well placed on b4, but the specific fact that White must reply 10.Ne2. Still, it is not obvious to me that White should be annoyed by that, since Black's bishop often retreats to d6 later on, and then White can play Bf4. Besides, Black has deprived himself of playing ...c5 with gain of tempo. I would not trust those statistics to prove that 9...Bb4 is stronger than 9...0-0-0.

And there is a more specific reason that I would njot spend a whole tempo playing 9.a3 with White. Put it this way: After 9.a3, a normal continuation would be 9...0-0-0 10.Be3 Bd6. Instead, you could play 9.Be3 and after 9...Bb4, play 10.Ne2 0-0-0 11.a3 Bd6. Now you have the possibility to play 12.Nd4 reaching the exact same position as above, but 12.0-0-0 looks much more useful. Thus, even if we consider ...Bb4 Black's best line, I would not spend a whole tempo preventing it.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #3 - 06/15/12 at 22:14:26
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I would also wonder why ...Bb4 is particularly desirable for Black/something White should go out of his way to avoid -- that seems atypical for such positions.  Looking at one database I indeed found 60% or so for Black but from a small number of games skewed by stronger players as Black.
  
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George Jempty
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #2 - 06/15/12 at 21:52:56
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kylemeister wrote on 06/15/12 at 20:48:03:
...Bd6 plus ...Bxf4 does look obliging.  One thing this put me in mind of is the line 5. 0-0 f6 6. d4 ed 7. Nxd4 c5 8. Ne2 Qxd1 9. Rxd1 Bd7 10. Nbc3 (played in e.g. Timman-Yusupov and Fischer-Spassky) -- so you are getting that with White's king and rook put back on their initial squares in exchange for a3.


Well yes ...Bd6? was obliging which is why I gave it a question mark but ...Bxf4 was more or less forced.  Good points about the trade offs between the position I get and the one in those games you cite, but 5. Nc3 allows the flexibility of castling long.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
Reply #1 - 06/15/12 at 20:48:03
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...Bd6 plus ...Bxf4 does look obliging.  One thing this put me in mind of is the line 5. 0-0 f6 6. d4 ed 7. Nxd4 c5 8. Ne2 Qxd1 9. Rxd1 Bd7 10. Nbc3 (played in e.g. Timman-Yusupov and Fischer-Spassky) -- so you are getting that with White's king and rook put back on their initial squares in exchange for a3.

  
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George Jempty
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White improves in the Nc3/...f6/d4 Exchange line
06/15/12 at 19:59:03
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I just played what I believe to be a subtle improvement for White in the Exchange line with 5. Nc3 as follows:

1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. Bb5 
a6  4. Bxc6  dxc6  5. Nc3  f6 
6. d4  exd4  7. Qxd4  Qxd4  8. Nxd4
Bd7

And now 9. a3! avoids the line 9. Be3 Bb4 that scores 60% for Black.

Play continued 9. a3  c5  10. Nde2  Bd6?
11. Bf4  Bxf4  12. Nxf4  Ne7  13. Nfd5?! when instead 13. 0-0-0 planning to double rooks on the d-file as soon as possible and I would have had a comfortable +/=

There are 2 or 3 games with 9. a3 in chessbase so it's not my own TN but it looks to be a possible improvement
  
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