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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura (Read 16151 times)
bragesjo
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #13 - 09/06/12 at 12:51:11
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Seems the Dragon has problems at the Olympics. This time however  black was at least to worse after the opening.


  
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bragesjo
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #12 - 09/01/12 at 20:34:13
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Yet an other game play in this system.
For my my part I have always prefered 12 ,, Qc8 instead of Rc8.

  
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Claus Jensen
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #11 - 07/23/12 at 19:59:10
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FirebrandX wrote on 07/23/12 at 01:09:10:
Claus Jensen wrote on 07/22/12 at 11:54:27:
FirebrandX wrote on 07/21/12 at 21:52:51:
If 11...Qa5 is the main move, it certainly isn't known on ICCF. I have 9 games that follow 11...h5 and that's it. Then again, this is a pretty rare line.


Since Houdini seems to favour 11...h5 it's not so strange that this is the move played on ICCF.

In otb chess, however,  11...Qa5 is clearly the main move.
Played very recently by players like Kabanov (2520), Socko (2479), Abbasov (2579), Berndt (2442)

According to my database the scores are as follows

11...Qa5 166 games - white scored 54.5%
11...h5 14 games (low rated) - white scored 60.7%


That's probably the case. Qa5 evaluates as slightly worse than h5 by Houdini as you say, though not by much. Normally there are enough games logged to where even the 'human' try is explored, but lines like this get rarely played as they don't offer black much more than hoping to draw on ICCF.


True. And after the apparently strong 11.h4 h5 12.Nd5! 
this line will be probably be even rarer!
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #10 - 07/23/12 at 01:09:10
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Claus Jensen wrote on 07/22/12 at 11:54:27:
FirebrandX wrote on 07/21/12 at 21:52:51:
If 11...Qa5 is the main move, it certainly isn't known on ICCF. I have 9 games that follow 11...h5 and that's it. Then again, this is a pretty rare line.


Since Houdini seems to favour 11...h5 it's not so strange that this is the move played on ICCF.

In otb chess, however,  11...Qa5 is clearly the main move.
Played very recently by players like Kabanov (2520), Socko (2479), Abbasov (2579), Berndt (2442)

According to my database the scores are as follows

11...Qa5 166 games - white scored 54.5%
11...h5 14 games (low rated) - white scored 60.7%


That's probably the case. Qa5 evaluates as slightly worse than h5 by Houdini as you say, though not by much. Normally there are enough games logged to where even the 'human' try is explored, but lines like this get rarely played as they don't offer black much more than hoping to draw on ICCF.
  
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Claus Jensen
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #9 - 07/22/12 at 11:54:27
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FirebrandX wrote on 07/21/12 at 21:52:51:
If 11...Qa5 is the main move, it certainly isn't known on ICCF. I have 9 games that follow 11...h5 and that's it. Then again, this is a pretty rare line.


Since Houdini seems to favour 11...h5 it's not so strange that this is the move played on ICCF.

In otb chess, however,  11...Qa5 is clearly the main move.
Played very recently by players like Kabanov (2520), Socko (2479), Abbasov (2579), Berndt (2442)

According to my database the scores are as follows

11...Qa5 166 games - white scored 54.5%
11...h5 14 games (low rated) - white scored 60.7%
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #8 - 07/21/12 at 21:52:51
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If 11...Qa5 is the main move, it certainly isn't known on ICCF. I have 9 games that follow 11...h5 and that's it. Then again, this is a pretty rare line.
  
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #7 - 07/20/12 at 02:58:23
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On 11. h4, 11...Qa5 has apparently been considered the main move; I for one would be none too surprised if 11...h5 is worse.

  
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #6 - 07/20/12 at 01:32:27
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My own comments on the opening from my ICCF database in regards to the annotations in the OP's posted game:

1. While 9...Be6 may be the 'main line', Nxd4 is in fact performing quite a lot better for black (59% versus 47%), though with of course less games logged. As it turns out, this merely transposes back to a main line, so I suspect the high performance is just move order trickery to trip someone out of their prepared opening line.

2. 11. h4 h5 lost to 12.Nd5 with both players over 2400 rating. Perhaps Grischuk forgot the move order?

Here's the game:

[Event "UKR/TC18 (UKR)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2011.02.15"]
[Round "?.1"]
[White "Goncharenko, Georgy"]
[Black "Liskevich, Valery"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2493"]
[BlackElo "2428"]
[PlyCount "91"]
[EventDate "2011.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. g4 Nxd4 10. Bxd4 Be6 11. h4 h5 12. Nd5 Bxd5 13. exd5 Qd7 14. O-O-O e5
15. dxe6 Qxe6 16. Kb1 d5 17. g5 Nd7 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. f4 Nb6 20. b3 Rae8 21.
Bb5 Re7 22. Rde1 Qd6 23. Qd4+ Kg8 24. f5 gxf5 25. Rxe7 Qxe7 26. Rf1 Nc8 27.
Rxf5 Nd6 28. Rxd5 Nxb5 29. Rxb5 Re8 30. a4 b6 31. Kb2 Rd8 32. Qc3 Qd7 33. Rb4
Qd5 34. Rc4 Rd6 35. a5 bxa5 36. Ra4 a6 37. Rxa5 Qe4 38. Rc5 Re6 39. Ka2 Re8 40.
Rc6 Re6 41. Rc8+ Re8 42. Qc4 Kg7 43. Rxe8 Qxe8 44. Qxa6 Qe4 45. Qf6+ Kg8 46.
Qf2 1-0



  
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kylemeister
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #5 - 07/19/12 at 21:17:34
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Well, 17. Re2 looks natural, and this appears in line with Oll's 1993 Informant notes (where he gave 16. h5 d5! with the idea of ...Ne4 as unclear, and thought 16. 0-0-0 was better).
  
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Claus Jensen
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #4 - 07/19/12 at 20:25:04
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While 16...Nd5 probably is the theoretical best for black, another possible move is the tricky 16...d5?!

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The idea is that the white queen could easily be overloaded as it has to defend both Bd4 and Rh2.

In the game Codenotti-Pepino 2009 white played

17.Re1? Ne4!? (also strong was 17...Nxg4! 18.fxg4 Bxd4)
18.fxe4 Bxd4 19.Rhe2 Qb6 20.c3 Be5 -+ with a very strong attack on the white king

The antidote against 16...d5?! seems to be 17.Re2! as suggested by Houdini. 
White changes strategy and plays against the backwards pawn on e6.
  
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #3 - 07/16/12 at 22:56:25
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I've played into similar lines before as black....I would agree that h5 seems like the way to go, but white seems to always get a nice game
  
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #2 - 06/18/12 at 08:41:18
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Naka has played the variation himself as white recently (against Robson), and my guess is that he considers 9...Be6 10.Nxe6 fe6 11.0-0-0 Ne5 12.Be2 Qc8 13.h4 Nc4 14.Bxc4 Qxc4 15.Bh6! as better for white (which is probably the truth).
  
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Re: [B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
Reply #1 - 06/17/12 at 15:31:53
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I notice that 16...Nd5 was given as unclear in the '90s (it was played by Kiril Georgiev in a game cited by Tiviakov ...incidentally I recall Tiviakov in those days demurring when it was suggested that he was the world's leading Dragon expert; he thought Georgiev was).
  
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bragesjo
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[B76] Grischuk-Nakamura
06/17/12 at 14:58:42
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I think this is a good attacking game by white.

  
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