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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Botvinnik Variation of English Opening (Read 12801 times)
Jay
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #17 - 06/28/12 at 02:23:08
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I have to agree with the other posters.  It is dangerous to play e4 before black commits to e5.  If you want to play this setup, TK's Dynamic English is excellent.  Basically you only want to commit to e4 if you can keep the center closed.  Then you either pursue kingside aggression or you play on the queenside.  I'd offer you my copy of DE, but if I am not giving it to my nephew, I'm not giving it to anyone.
  
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nyoke
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #16 - 06/25/12 at 20:20:27
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You must be kidding ! It's the english opening ?!
  
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Markovich
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #15 - 06/23/12 at 03:18:44
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The position doesn't depend on where just one side puts its pawns, you know?
  

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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #14 - 06/22/12 at 19:21:53
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ham204 wrote on 06/22/12 at 18:55:19:
I don't understand your comment - I see many games starting with 1.c4 Nf6; 2.Nc3 e6; 3.e4.  Why cannot White continue to set up the position described above?


That is indeed a major line (although the latest Flank Openings update wonders if it is "finished" ...), but it doesn't normally lead to a Botvinnik setup, because Black is engaging White too quickly in the center (e.g. with 3...d5, one of Black's two main moves).
  
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ham204
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #13 - 06/22/12 at 18:55:19
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kylemeister wrote on 06/20/12 at 21:26:00:
Well you can hardly count on getting that after 1...Nf6 and 2...e6 (or various other things that can involve an early ...d5).


I don't understand your comment - I see many games starting with 1.c4 Nf6; 2.Nc3 e6; 3.e4.  Why cannot White continue to set up the position described above?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #12 - 06/22/12 at 10:58:52
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Markovich wrote on 06/22/12 at 01:30:57:
I don't really believe in White's tempo in these systems.

No, me neither, it's a solid line with both colours where you have good chances to win if you understand it better than your opponent.
Did anyone notice the coverage in the May update?!
  
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Markovich
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #11 - 06/22/12 at 01:30:57
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It's funny, because I usually adopt this system against the English after 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 and so forth.  With due deference to GM Marin, I don't really believe in White's tempo in these systems.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #10 - 06/21/12 at 22:42:21
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Well, there were += lines against some of Black's possibilities, but in parts written by Gallagher.  On the other hand, in that branch Emms gave as +=, the surprising (at least to me) 8...e5 transposes to something given as unclear by Gallagher.

I suppose 8...Ne8 might have gained favor at some point because it straightaway enables Black to meet f4 with ...f5.  In an old thread on the Botvinnik, I mentioned a half-remembered game and annotations (by the Black player) to the effect that f4 and f5 is "pure bluff," but couldn't identify the game.  Apparently it was Grefe-Kaplan, Berkeley 1968, but such attempts as I have made to find the score were unsuccessful. 
 
« Last Edit: 06/21/12 at 23:51:48 by kylemeister »  
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Vass
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #9 - 06/21/12 at 21:40:05
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In fact, this is the only line he evaluated as +=. All other lines were clearly assessed as =.
And yes, why 8...Nf6-e8 before 9.Bc1-e3 (or 9.h2-h3 first) - nobody knows..  Wink
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #8 - 06/21/12 at 15:04:38
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Vass wrote on 06/21/12 at 10:26:58:
So to speak, the Botvinnik setup can give you an equality against a strong opposition and += only if black are not familiar with the plans and ideas in some lines.  Cool


That reminds me of John Emms (in NCO) giving a couple of versions of the Botvinnik as +=, including 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. e4 Nf6.  One thing is, after 6. Nge2 0-0 7. 0-0 d6 8. d3, he gave only 8...Ne8, which seems to me the most traditional move at that point, but I'm not sure why Black shouldn't try to wait for h3.
  
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Vass
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #7 - 06/21/12 at 10:26:58
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Let's see, you cannot build the so-called Botvinnink setup against 1...Nf6 and 2...e6, because you'll find yourself playing the Mikenas Attack, as already pointed out by the previous posters. Then you have to know how to play the latter, too..
You can try to build this setup in every English Opening game you play as white, but be aware of the fact that black has various antidotes! For example, one of these is with Nf6-e8-c7-e6-d4 route for the black king's knight. Another one can be e7-e6, Ng8-e7, d7-d6 (or even d7-d5 if you're not precise with white), 0-0 and opposing with f7-f5 on your f2-f4 tries.. So to speak, the Botvinnik setup can give you an equality against a strong opposition and += only if black are not familiar with the plans and ideas in some lines.  Cool
  
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MartinC
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #6 - 06/21/12 at 08:33:54
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You'd have to think so - in general of course that whole set up wouldn't make terribly much sense vs a pure Nf6/e6 set up. No real point not going d4, too likely to get hit by a d5 break while trying to set it up etc etc.
  
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #5 - 06/21/12 at 01:00:59
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kylemeister wrote on 06/20/12 at 21:26:00:
Well you can hardly count on getting that after 1...Nf6 and 2...e6 (or various other things that can involve an early ...d5).

If you try, you may quickly find yourself in the Mikenas Attack, at least if you start with 1.c4,2.Nc3. So maybe that is (part of) what ham204 is talking about.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #4 - 06/20/12 at 21:26:00
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Well you can hardly count on getting that after 1...Nf6 and 2...e6 (or various other things that can involve an early ...d5).
  
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ham204
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Re: Botvinnik Variation of English Opening
Reply #3 - 06/20/12 at 20:56:15
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white's setup is :
pawns at c4,d3,e4 and g3
Ns at c3 and e2
Bs at e3 and g2
  
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