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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann (Read 11544 times)
semper_fidelis
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #17 - 10/20/21 at 17:33:31
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MNb wrote on 10/20/21 at 07:51:37:
semper_fidelis wrote on 10/19/21 at 19:41:11:
On the contrary, starting with 9.Qc2 disallows Nf8, so Black must push his pawn (...h5), but after 10.0-0 there is ...h4 which stops your otherwise dangerous idea of Ng3.

This is correct of course, but also incomplete. I wouldn't mind playing 9.Qc2 h5 10.O-O h4 (Qc7 11.g3) 11.Bf4 with superior development and pawn structure. Thus far White's results have been promising.

Well, this is a mainline, after all. 11.Bf4 is one of critical tries, and recent sources (e.g. l'Ami on Chessable) recommend 11...Na6!? with the knight heading to d5 or e6 (this is Black's best scoring answer as well). But this is just where the theory starts.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #16 - 10/20/21 at 07:51:37
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semper_fidelis wrote on 10/19/21 at 19:41:11:
On the contrary, starting with 9.Qc2 disallows Nf8, so Black must push his pawn (...h5), but after 10.0-0 there is ...h4 which stops your otherwise dangerous idea of Ng3.

This is correct of course, but also incomplete. I wouldn't mind playing 9.Qc2 h5 10.O-O h4 (Qc7 11.g3) 11.Bf4 with superior development and pawn structure. Thus far White's results have been promising.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #15 - 10/19/21 at 19:41:11
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Laramonet wrote on 10/19/21 at 18:43:23:
In fact it is now recommended by at least three books and a Chessable course.
One move-order issue: all sources seem to handle the delay of Qc2 in the same way i.e. 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 de 4. Ne4 Nf6 5. Nf6+ ef 6.c3 Bd6 7. Bd3 0-0 8. Ne2 Re8 9. 0-0 Nd7. However, nobody considers 10. Qc2. The natural 10. Qc2 h5 allows 11. Ng3 with the potentially spectacular follow up 11..., Qc7 12. Nh5 Bh2+ 13. Kh1 Bd6 14. Bh6 !!
In the normal move order, with Qc2 played before Ne2 and 0-0, the wisdom is to answer 0-0 with h4, preventing this possibility. Can anyone see what I am missing ?


If White delays Qc2 until Black plays ...Nd7, there is no need to play ...h5, as ...Nf8 protects h7 in more natural way (Black has a good score after 10.Qc2 Nf8). On the contrary, starting with 9.Qc2 disallows Nf8, so Black must push his pawn (...h5), but after 10.0-0 there is ...h4 which stops your otherwise dangerous idea of Ng3.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #14 - 10/19/21 at 18:43:23
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In fact it is now recommended by at least three books and a Chessable course.
One move-order issue: all sources seem to handle the delay of Qc2 in the same way i.e. 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 de 4. Ne4 Nf6 5. Nf6+ ef 6.c3 Bd6 7. Bd3 0-0 8. Ne2 Re8 9. 0-0 Nd7. However, nobody considers 10. Qc2. The natural 10. Qc2 h5 allows 11. Ng3 with the potentially spectacular follow up 11..., Qc7 12. Nh5 Bh2+ 13. Kh1 Bd6 14. Bh6 !!
In the normal move order, with Qc2 played before Ne2 and 0-0, the wisdom is to answer 0-0 with h4, preventing this possibility. Can anyone see what I am missing ?
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #13 - 05/25/20 at 09:25:03
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This line is now recommended in Caro Kann Revisited by Rambaldi.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #12 - 12/20/19 at 18:52:21
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kylemeister wrote on 11/26/19 at 17:50:03:
winawer77 wrote on 11/26/19 at 09:37:34:
I thought the modern try in this position was 9...h5! This scores well for Black and makes lot of sense. Howell, Fridman and Artemiev have played this on several occasions.

Those guys (and others) have however played it against 9. Ne2 rather than 9. Be3.  I see that Cheparinov has played it against both.

After 9.Be3 h5, does white have anything better than 10.Ne2 transposing? 10.Nf3 is met with 10...Bf4.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #11 - 11/26/19 at 18:28:52
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winawer77 wrote on 11/26/19 at 09:37:34:
I thought the modern try in this position was 9...h5! This scores well for Black and makes lot of sense. Howell, Fridman and Artemiev have played this on several occasions.

I also like this whole concept of 5...exf6 for Black, yet it’s hardly been covered in any books. That said, there are two ChessBase videos on this (for members only), omen by Williams which is 60 mins long, and another short one by Gujarathi, which can be found on the ChessBase India YouTube channel.

I’d very much like to see this covered in a complete repertoire somewhere.


Well, it has been covered some time ago by GM Firak from modern-chess.com.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #10 - 11/26/19 at 17:50:03
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winawer77 wrote on 11/26/19 at 09:37:34:
I thought the modern try in this position was 9...h5! This scores well for Black and makes lot of sense. Howell, Fridman and Artemiev have played this on several occasions.

Those guys (and others) have however played it against 9. Ne2 rather than 9. Be3.  I see that Cheparinov has played it against both.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #9 - 11/26/19 at 09:37:34
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kylemeister wrote on 05/06/19 at 15:55:30:
Incidentally that 6. c3 Bd6 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Re8+ 9. Be3 h6 10. Ne2 Na6 11. O-O Nc7 12. c4 was given as leading to an edge for White in old theory (citing Chandler-Christiansen, in which Larry played 12...Bd7 instead of Carlsen's 12...Bg4).


I thought the modern try in this position was 9...h5! This scores well for Black and makes lot of sense. Howell, Fridman and Artemiev have played this on several occasions.

I also like this whole concept of 5...exf6 for Black, yet it’s hardly been covered in any books. That said, there are two ChessBase videos on this (for members only), omen by Williams which is 60 mins long, and another short one by Gujarathi, which can be found on the ChessBase India YouTube channel.

I’d very much like to see this covered in a complete repertoire somewhere.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #8 - 05/22/19 at 16:23:37
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The new update has a game (Simacek-Michalik) in which White eschewed Qc2:  6 c3 Bd6 7 Bd3 0-0 8 Ne2 Re8 9 0-0 Nd7 10 Bf4.  As it happens that's another line which was given in old theory (ECO in 2002, citing Khalifman) as slightly favoring White.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #7 - 05/06/19 at 15:55:30
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Incidentally that 6. c3 Bd6 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Re8+ 9. Be3 h6 10. Ne2 Na6 11. O-O Nc7 12. c4 was given as leading to an edge for White in old theory (citing Chandler-Christiansen, in which Larry played 12...Bd7 instead of Carlsen's 12...Bg4).
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #6 - 05/06/19 at 13:48:10
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I was interested in this line, too, but the game Svidler - Carlsen shows a risk free approach for White:

https://chess-db.com/public/game.jsp?id=4102142.1503014.50458624.30268
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #5 - 05/05/19 at 00:43:25
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I saw an advertisement selling a rather expensive new PGN database about this exf6 variation.
https://www.modern-chess.com/en/chess-databases/database=52

The author/seller also recommends 3...c5 against the Advance variation and the early g6 line against the Panov-Botvinnik.  Seems like this would be a simple/lightweight and low-maintenance way to play while leading to a few different pawn structures  (unlike most lightweight options like the the Scandinavian or the Fort Knox French which lead to the same sort of game every time)  Also I did not see a lifeless killjoy/spoilsport variation provided that you dont mind the three big pillars of the repertoire mentioned above.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #4 - 07/25/12 at 21:13:21
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I'm vaguely interested in both gf6 and ef6, so would like some further comment.  Silman wrote a book in 1989 on these variations but there hasn't been much coverage otherwise.

At first glance with ef6 seems like black can equalize after 6 Bc4 Qe7+ 7 Qe2 Be6 and 6 Nf3 Bd6.  As far as I know, in the sharp mainline 6 c3 Bd6 7 Bd3 0-0 8 Qc2 Re8+ 9 Ne2, 9...g6! is best as 10 h4 Be6! 11 h5 f5! 12 hxg6 hxg6 13 Bh6 Qf6 is just a bit of a mess but in other lines white can get something.
« Last Edit: 05/08/14 at 12:22:32 by TN »  
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Re: 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann
Reply #3 - 06/28/12 at 06:43:47
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The name of this thread is:
"3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 gf6 Caro-Kann"
...while we are talking about 3.Nc3 de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 5.Nf6 ef6 Caro-Kann  Huh
@TN Can you change the name of the thread appropriately?
  Wink
« Last Edit: 05/08/14 at 12:23:14 by TN »  
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