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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit (Read 126943 times)
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #249 - 09/20/17 at 22:15:50
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Fyfe variations index (hopefully all of them)
1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4
  • 3...d5 4.Nf3 exd4 5.exd5 dxc3 {/206 }
  • 3...Bc5 4.Bb5 d6 5.Bxc6+ bxc6 {/206 }
  • 3...exd4 {/2 /80 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Bc4 dxc3 5.Qd5 Be7 {/206 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 {/122 /134 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Nf6 5.Bf4 d6 {/0 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Nf6 5.Bf4 Nxd5 {/0 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Bc5 5.Qh5 Bb4+ {/232 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Bc5 5.a3 Nf6 {/232 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Bc5 5.a3 Nge7 {/232 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Bc5 5.a3 a5 {/232 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Bc5 5.Nf3 Nge7 {/227 {/232 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nd5 Bc5 5.Nf3 Nf6 {/227 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 {/15 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 Nf6 {/0 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 Bb4+ {/0 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 Bb4+ }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 Bb4+ 5.c3 {/134 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bc5 {/134 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 Bc5 5.Bf4 d6 {/0 }
  • 3...exd4 4.Nb5 Bc5 5.Nf3 Nf6 {/122 /131 /134 }
  • 3...Nxd4 {/61 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Nc6 {/0 /9 /20 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 {/7 /16 /17 /78 /88 /98 /100 /101 /102 /103 /110 /130 /189 /235 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.Nxd5 {/105 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.Be3 {/105 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.Bd3 {/105 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.fxe5 {/105 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.fxe5 dxe4 {/30 /199 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.exd5 Bg4 {/104 /107 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.exd5 Bc5 {/24 /30 /32 /80 /82 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.exd5 Qe7 {/40 /42 /43 /47 /48 /49 /54 /55 /56 /57 /58 /59 /60 /62 /64 /65 /66 /67 /68 /69 /70 /71 /72 /73 /74 /75 /76 /79 /80 /82 /83 /84 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.exd5 Qh4+ {/30 /43 /52 /55 /81 /83 /95 /96 /98 /99 /108 /139 /140 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d5 5.exd5 Bf5 {/24 /25 /26 /27 /28 /29 /30 /33 /34 /35 /36 /37 /38 /39 /41 /43 /55 /80 /84 /86 /89 /90 /92 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Bd6 {/80 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Bc5 5.fxe5 d6 {/199 /205 /219 /220 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Bc5 5.fxe5 c6 {/199 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 c6 5.fxe5 Bc5 {/199 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d6 {/99 /100 /102 /105 /107 /110 /130 /132 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Be3 {/112 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Be3 Nc6 {/97 /199 /239 /240 /241 /242 /243 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Nf3 Nc6 {/97 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Nf3 Bg4 {/97 /112 /116 /117 /118 /119 /123 /124 /125 /126 /127 /128 /129 /133 /199 /233 /235 /236 /237 /239 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Bb4 {/56 /80 /88 /91 /118 /189 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Bb4 5.Nf3 Nc6 {/0 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Bb4 5.Nf3 Nxf3+ {/0 /15 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.f4 Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+ {/0 /3 /24 /61 /77 /93 /128 /129 /130 /136 /137 /141 /162 /199 /214 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 {/62 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nxf3+ {/9 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nxf3+ 5.Qxf3 Nf6 {/1 /2 /3 /5 /8 /16 /24 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nxf3+ 5.Qxf3 c6 {/6 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nxf3+ 5.Qxf3 d6 {/11 /24 /44 /50 /51 /53 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nxf3+ 5.Qxf3 Bb4 {/44 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 {/4 /17 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bg5 Be7 {/4 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bc4 Be7 {/9 }
  • 3...Nxd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bc4 h6 {/11 /14 /24 }


Other variations index (maybe not all of them)
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 {/79 /113 /114 /115 /134 /146 /147 /148 /157 /161 /165 /166 /167 /168 /169 /171 /172 /173 /174 /177 /178 /179 /180 /181 /182 /183 /185 /186 /192 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 b5 {/79 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 {/149 /150 /151 /154 /156 /159 /164 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bc5 4.d4 {/150 /154 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 d5 {/142 /143 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 {/146 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 d5 {/144 /145 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Qg4 {/164 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 {/227 /232 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.O-O Nf6 5.d4 {/132 /162 /227 /232 }
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 g6 4.b4 {/161 }
  • 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 {/192 }
  • 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Bg5 Ne4 4.Bf4 e5 {/194 /196 }


Quote:
The Fyfe Gambit may be incorrect or not, I don't know. There are the Nimzowitsches, who think that certain moves are not worth debating, and the Alapins, who need concrete analysis. True: Nimzowitsch, with his limited focus, was stronger over the board.
--Stefan Buecker /24


Quote:
Meta-theory isn't the real thing - "Die Variante triumphiert" (The variation triumphs), as Alapin put it. But it can help to consider general rules and concepts.
--Stefan Buecker /192


Quote:
To me (and hopefully many others here), chess theory is the study of the games that are played and how they evolve as response to earlier games - and since no one plays the Fyfe anymore it's not theory, it's history. Simple as that.
--TalJechin /226

  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #248 - 12/19/15 at 20:18:32
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It's great to see you back and posting again Stefan!

Thanks for sharing the poem!
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #247 - 12/19/15 at 17:37:09
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TalJechin wrote on 12/19/15 at 11:48:17:
OK, since it's soon Christmas I'll remove the poll for you! Smiley

Surprised that this thread has more than 40 000 views, so obviously there is more interest in the topic than I thought three years ago...

Thanks. Suddenly the thread is looking much better. Now if Tony could bring back the old, nice diagrams...  Smiley

Since you mention Christmas, I'll avoid posting new analysis (for now) and instead add a little poem. - Source: The Chessplayer's Chronicle and Journal of Indoor and Outdoor Amusements, 20th June 1883.

  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #246 - 12/19/15 at 11:48:17
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/19/15 at 08:46:46:
Alan McGowan has published information on Peter Fyfe, including a photo of the maestro.

The poll has ruined this thread for me, but this info seems worth sharing.


OK, since it's soon Christmas I'll remove the poll for you! Smiley

Surprised that this thread has more than 40 000 views, so obviously there is more interest in the topic than I thought three years ago...
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #245 - 12/19/15 at 08:46:46
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Alan McGowan has published information on Peter Fyfe, including a photo of the maestro.

The poll has ruined this thread for me, but this info seems worth sharing.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #244 - 12/05/12 at 03:04:28
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Wind wrote on 11/07/12 at 15:58:31:
Hello Stefan, thank you for your positive and amicable reaction. I agree with you that [instead of the premature advance 6.f5?] white should play 6.Nf3!. Then it is far from obvious how black should deal with white's initiative.

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.Nf3

(A) 6... Nf6 7.f5! Recommended by Stefan Buecker. Here the advance is entirely appropriate. White gains space on the kingside, while restricting black's play. Note that black can not take advantage with 7... g6, since white plays 8.Bc4 targetting f7. 7... Be7 8.h3 (perhaps other moves can be considered). Here I examined two responses for black:

(A1) 8... O-O 9.a3 (preventing ... d5, exd5, Nb4; and preparing Bc4, so that Na5 is met by Ba2) 9... Nh5!? (after other moves white plays either g4 or Bc4 with good compensation) 10.g4 (10.Bf2 may also be okay) 10... Ng3 11.Rg1 Nxf1 12.Rxf1 with fine compensation.

(A2) 8... d5!? This attempt to refute white's play leads to messy complications. 9.exd5 Nb4 10.Bb5+ Bd7 11.Bxd7 (11.Bc4?! favours black; 11.Qe2!?) 11... Qxd7 12.O-O e4 13.Ne5 Qd6 14.Nb5 Qxe5 15.Bf4 with enormous complications. According to Houdini the correct result is a draw (0.00).

(B) 6... exf4 7.Bxf4 Nf6 (or 7... Nge7 8.Qd2 Ng6 9.Bg3 Be7 10.O-O-O O-O with mutual chances) 8.Qe2! This is the key move: white is going to castle queenside. This will offer him plenty of middle-game chances. 8... Be7 9.O-O-O O-O 10.h3 Be6 11.Kb1 Re8 12.g4 a6 13.Bg2. Although white is a pawn down, the position is certainly of interest and offers chances to both sides. At least in OTB games this line may well be playable for white.   



hello Mr Wind.
Have you seen my analysis I posted here ?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #243 - 11/09/12 at 21:44:53
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Thank you very much, Maurits. It is encouraging that you agree that 6...Nf6 7.f5! offers sufficient chances. After 7...Be7 8.h3 I had considered 8...d5 only superficially. Overall I like White's chances after 7.f5, at least from a practical point of view: the advance of pawns gives White a lot of space, and Black has to generate counterplay, cannot just wait. 

So maybe 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.Nf3 exf4(!) 7.Bxf4 is indeed the critical line.

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(a) If 7...Nf6, 8.Qe2! (Maurits Wind) is probably the most accurate reply. Putting a bishop to c4 makes no sense, as the attacks on this piece (on c4 or b3) will only accelerate Black's play on the queenside. Wind's analysis 8... Be7 9.0-0-0 0-0 10.h3 Be6 11.Kb1 Re8 12.g4 a6 13.Bg2 looks fine. White has a space advantage and free piece play for the pawn. 

(b) 7... Nge7 8.Qd2 (or 8.Qe2 Ng6 9.Bg3 Be7 10.0-0-0 Bf6!) 8...Ng6 9.Be3 (my first idea was 9.Bg3 Be7 10.0-0-0, but Black plays 10...Bf6! followed by Be5 and wins a tempo, because White doesn't really want to exchange on e5) 9...Be7 10.0-0-0 0-0 11.Nd5, with active play for the pawn, e.g. 11...Bf6?! 12.Be2 Re8 13.Rhf1! and pawn e4 is indirectly protected.

Whether 5.Be3 is really better than our former main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Nf3!? Bg4 6.Be2 Nxe2 7.Qxe2 c6 8.h3 Bxf3(!) Markovich 9.Qxf3 Nf6, is not easy to assess. For example, White could continue 10.Bd2 (to discourage Qa5) 10...Be7 11.0-0-0 Qc7 12.Kb1 0-0-0 13.Be3 Kb8 14.Rd2 Nd7 15.Rhd1 Qa5 (15...exf4 16.Bxf4 Nb6 17.b3 Nc8 18.Na4) 16.f5 Nb6 17.Rd3, and it is hard to see how Black can ever "free" his passive Be7.

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« Last Edit: 11/09/12 at 23:12:53 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #242 - 11/07/12 at 15:58:31
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Hello Stefan, thank you for your positive and amicable reaction. I agree with you that [instead of the premature advance 6.f5?] white should play 6.Nf3!. Then it is far from obvious how black should deal with white's initiative.

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.Nf3

(A) 6... Nf6 7.f5! Recommended by Stefan Buecker. Here the advance is entirely appropriate. White gains space on the kingside, while restricting black's play. Note that black can not take advantage with 7... g6, since white plays 8.Bc4 targetting f7. 7... Be7 8.h3 (perhaps other moves can be considered). Here I examined two responses for black:

(A1) 8... O-O 9.a3 (preventing ... d5, exd5, Nb4; and preparing Bc4, so that Na5 is met by Ba2) 9... Nh5!? (after other moves white plays either g4 or Bc4 with good compensation) 10.g4 (10.Bf2 may also be okay) 10... Ng3 11.Rg1 Nxf1 12.Rxf1 with fine compensation.

(A2) 8... d5!? This attempt to refute white's play leads to messy complications. 9.exd5 Nb4 10.Bb5+ Bd7 11.Bxd7 (11.Bc4?! favours black; 11.Qe2!?) 11... Qxd7 12.O-O e4 13.Ne5 Qd6 14.Nb5 Qxe5 15.Bf4 with enormous complications. According to Houdini the correct result is a draw (0.00).

(B) 6... exf4 7.Bxf4 Nf6 (or 7... Nge7 8.Qd2 Ng6 9.Bg3 Be7 10.O-O-O O-O with mutual chances) 8.Qe2! This is the key move: white is going to castle queenside. This will offer him plenty of middle-game chances. 8... Be7 9.O-O-O O-O 10.h3 Be6 11.Kb1 Re8 12.g4 a6 13.Bg2. Although white is a pawn down, the position is certainly of interest and offers chances to both sides. At least in OTB games this line may well be playable for white.   
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #241 - 11/03/12 at 01:10:14
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Thanks Maurits, for refuting my analysis so convincingly!  Shocked

I have to admit that Maurits Wind is right: after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.f5 g6 7.g4, my assessment "looks fine for White" was far too optimistic. 

Wind wrote on 10/25/12 at 16:18:05:
The obvious reaction is 7... h5!, immediately attacking white's imposing -yet still vulnerable- kingside pawns, before white has had time to support the structure. After 8.fxg6 (what else?) 8... fxg6 white has two possibilities.

(A) 8.g5 Closing the position, and attempting to keep Bf8 out off play for a long time. 8... Nge7 10.Bc4 Bg7. Black is a healthy pawn up and doing fine. After a continuation like 11.a3, black frees himself with 11... Bg4, followed by Qd7, O-O-O, Be6 etc. On the other hand 11.Qd3 is well met by 11... Na5!, followed by the exchange of knight for bishop. [...]

Maybe 10.Bg2 Be6 11.Qd2 Qd7 12.h3, but it is quite clear that Black's king will be safe on g8, and that the long-term chances are favouring Black.

I had suggested 6.f5 in order to avoid 6.Nf3 exf4 (6...Nf6 7.f5!), but maybe 6.Nf3 exf4 7.Bxf4 is still worth a look, as a last attempt to rescue the Fyfe. According to Rybka, it is -0.20, but even when Black has a knight safely established on e5, there remains a lot of white piece play (for example h2-h4-h5).
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #240 - 10/25/12 at 16:18:05
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Hello chess friends, I am a new member at this splendid forum. I am a great fan of the creative and original theoretician FM Stefan Buecker and I am eagerly awaiting the publication of Kaissiber issue 38 !

In the everlasting Fyfe gambit, Stefan Buecker's latest proposal is: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.f5 g6 7.g4 with the assessment "looks fine for white".

The obvious reaction is 7... h5!, immediately attacking white's imposing -yet still vulnerable- kingside pawns, before white has had time to support the structure. After 8.fxg6 (what else?) 8... fxg6 white has two possibilities.

(A) 8.g5 Closing the position, and attempting to keep Bf8 out off play for a long time. 8... Nge7 10.Bc4 Bg7. Black is a healthy pawn up and doing fine. After a continuation like 11.a3, black frees himself with 11... Bg4, followed by Qd7, O-O-O, Be6 etc. On the other hand 11.Qd3 is well met by 11... Na5!, followed by the exchange of knight for bishop.

(B) 8.gxh5!? Further opening the position, in order to create fighting chances. Though in fact it is black who appears to benefit more. Here are a few ideas. (i) A simple and good respons is 8... Qh4+ 9.Bf2 Qxh5. (ii) Sharp and interesting is 8... Nf6!? 10.hxg6 Ng4! and black has otained the initiative. (iii) Probably best is 8... Bh6(!) 9.Bf2 In this position black has several interesting and appealing options: 9... Be6, 9... g5, 9... Nf6 and 9... Nd4!?. It seems to me that each of these choices yields black the initiative and a good game.

I look forward to all your reactions!
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #239 - 10/16/12 at 12:10:40
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Markovich wrote on 10/16/12 at 01:35:00:
Considering the history of this thread, I can't understand why no one wants to take up his cudgel on this latest subject. Ah well.

Apologies for my late reply. I checked your and SWJediknight's analyses, without much success. So I have to admit that Bg4xf3 is much stronger than the retreat Bd7. There are also additional options like Nf6-d7 (as square d7 isn't occupied), intending exf4 and Ne5. But Qa5 is just as good, or better. These positions hardly offer White enough compensation. - It was important that in the other position, with Bd7, Black had to castle before he was able to achieve the intended Nf6-e8-c7. Here, without Bd7, the plan Nf6-d7, followed by an eventual f6, Nb6 and d6-d5, is much easier to execute for Black.

So after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6, the only remaining continuation seems to be 5.Be3! Nc6 6.f5!?. At first I thought that 6...g6 would be a problem, but 7.g4 looks fine for White.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #238 - 10/16/12 at 01:35:00
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Considering the history of this thread, I can't understand why no one wants to take up his cudgel on this latest subject. Ah well.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #237 - 10/05/12 at 15:55:42
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I don't have the time right now to look deeply, but after 12.fxe5 in your last line, I'm unimpressed by White's alleged kingside play after 12...dxe5 13.Qg3 0-0 14.Bh6.  Necessary is 14...Ne8. after which, what is White doing? (Edit: I looked at 15.Rd7 Bb4 16.Bd2 Nf6, intending 17.Bh6 g6.)

White could also try 13.Qf5, but I don't think that works very well.

I agree that the idea of taking on e5 with the queen looks interesting, but I don't think Black is committed to it after ...Qa5.
« Last Edit: 10/05/12 at 18:02:55 by Markovich »  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #236 - 10/05/12 at 09:55:35
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Onto 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 d6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.Be2 Nxe2 7.Qxe2 c6 8.h3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Nf6 (this suggestion of Markovich looks logical to me).

10.Be3 Qa5 11.0-0-0 Be7 12.fxe5 (12.Qg3?! Nh5) 12...Qxe5 (one of the points of 10...Qa5; instead 12...dxe5 13.Qg3 (13.g4!?) 13...0-0 14.Bh6 gives White promising play on the kingside) 13.Bd4 Qg5+ 14.Kb1 0-0.

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Actually I would be quite happy to take White in this position.

Instead Black (after 9...Nf6 10.Be3) could consider 10...exf4 11.Bxf4 Be7 12.0-0-0 Qc7 which seems rather more solid as Black retains the option of castling queenside:
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However White can also recapture with the queen in order to keep the e3-bishop pointing at a7 and discouraging ...0-0-0: 11.Qxf4!?, although 11...Be7 12.0-0-0 Qa5, intending ...Qe5, again looks pretty solid, e.g. 13.Kb1 Qe5 14.Qf2 0-0.  White probably falls just short of full compensation.

Regarding some of Stefan's earlier comments, even if (as I suspect) the Fyfe Gambit is slightly better for Black with best play, the fact that such a line can be playable below master level highlights how rich in possibilities chess really is.  I agree, btw, that in the 3...exd4 lines I gave, the continuation (4.Nd5 Bc5 5.Nf3 (5.a3!?, indeed, is better than it looks) Nge7 6.Bc4 Nxd5 7.exd5 Qe7+) 8.Be2 looks good enough for equality, although it's not the kind of position that I'd want to get out of the opening.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #235 - 10/05/12 at 02:22:38
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Notwithstanding my interest in 4...d5, I'd like to come back to 4...d6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.Be2 Nxe2 7.Qxe2 c6. Black's conservative play makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not very impressed by the idea of ...Bxf3 followed by ...Nc6, which just doesn't seem like chess to me. Now around about post #112, 8.h3 Be6 was considered. But, Black being a pawn up, why not bring off another set of pieces?  8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Be7 or 9...Nf6 and I will be very interested to see how White finds his compensation. I would think that Black's queen will most likely go to a5.

P.S. It's already very difficult to look back and find Fyfe Gambit ideas in this thread, which seems to have become a sort of salon for discursions into even more trivial topics than this one. May I request that we henceforth post on topic here? Someone could indeed do everyone else a favor by moving the non-Fyfe Gambit material elsewhere. Or just deleting it.
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #234 - 10/04/12 at 10:07:03
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Never trust Stefan Bücker when he avoids to give a source.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/20/12 at 08:05:56:
Staunton once offered "pawn and move" to a lesser master. The offer was rejected, because "he wasn't sure whether the open f-file wasn't an advantage rather than a handicap for Black".  Cheesy

Correction:
Henk Smout kindly points out that Staunton was not involved in this incident. It was (as I should have known) Paul Morphy after his triumph in Europe who announced that he'd only accept challenges where he'd give "pawn and move". David Lawson published in Paul Morphy, The Pride and Sorrow of Chess (1976, David McKay Company, Inc., New York), pp. 259-60, the following, starting with Louis Paulsen's letter to Henry Harrisse (Oktober 2nd, 1859):

Quote:
As soon as I received your letter I commenced analyzing the pawn and move game. I have not yet finished my work. Should the result prove that in the pawn and move game the advantage is really on the side of the player who receives the odds, as it is supposed to be, I will play a match with Morphy at these odds; and should I beat him he will be obliged to play a match on even terms.

By the autumn of 1860 Paulsen had convinced himself (even if no one else agreed with him) that Pawn odds offered no advantage to the receiver. This decision was undoubtedly influenced by his great desire to play Morphy on even terms. He therefore wrote the following letter:

Quote:
New York, Oct. 3, 1860
Paul Morphy, Esq., Dear Sir:
[...]
I am aware that you have declined playing with our most prominent Chess players, except at odds of pawn and move. Allow me in reply to express the opinion that the odds of pawn and move is a doubtful advantage, whilst it invariably and necessarily results in a kind of mongrel game, never advancing the cause of Chess and rarely proving interesting to the great majority of Amateurs.
[...]

Thanks to Henk Smout for this detailed correction.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #233 - 09/30/12 at 23:04:13
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SWJediknight:
Quote:
If I was Black against this I would also be tempted by the solid 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d6, which looks a little better for Black in the lines TalJechin looked at although White does get some initiative.

I think Black had nothing at all in the position where we closed the debate in that line - see diagram below, with Black to move. The Bh6 does nothing. If Black tries g6, White will play g3-g4! followed by g5 and Nd5. Black has an extra pawn, but he is almost paralyzed, has no pawn breaks at all. Am I wrong to slightly prefer White? He has all the fun: a3, b4, Qd3, Rd1 - and always g3-g4 remains a threat. What is Black's plan? He might return the pawn (Nc6-d4), but that's rather += than anything else.

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #232 - 09/30/12 at 17:25:57
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/26/12 at 12:51:35:
With some assistance from Rybka I have found another possibility for Black (apologies if someone else found it earlier in the thread).

The point is that with 5...Nge7, Black avoids the transposition to the Belgrade Gambit with 5...Nf6, and the main advantage of this is that 6.Bg5 is hit by 6...f6.  I feel that White is able to get some, but not enough, compensation for the pawn.[...]

My "intended solution" was 5.Qh5 Bb4+ 6.Nxb4 Nxb4 7.Qe5+ Ne7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Qxd4 Nec6 10.Qc3 d5 11.Ne2 Re8 12.f3 Nxd3+ 13.cxd3 dxe4 14.dxe4 f5 15.0-0 fxe4 16.fxe4 Rxe4 17.Ng3.
 
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Since 17...Qd4+ 18.Qxd4 Rxd4 19.Bf4 Be6 20.Bxc7 leads to an equal position, Black might prefer 17...Re8 18.Bf4 Be6 19.b3, but I thought that White has enough compensation for the pawn. - Okay, this line is drawish, but nevertheless somewhat disappointing for White. 

I had embraced 5.Qh5 because I wasn't sure about 5.Nf3. However, after checking your analysis, the latter move could indeed be White's best option: 5...Nge7 6.Bc4 Nxd5. Your proposal, but isn't this just a transposition to the Belgrade Gambit? 7.exd5 Qe7+ 8.Be2 (instead of your continuation 8.Kf1) 8...Nb4 9.0-0 0-0 10.c3 Nxd5 11.Re1, about =.

Can Black avoid to go into the Belgrade? 6...0-0 7.Bg5 Kh8 looked good at first, but White has a surprise: 8.Nf6!.

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For example: 8...h6 9.Bxh6 d5 10.Bg5 dxc4 11.Nd2! g6 12.Qf3 Bb6 13.Qg3 Kg7 14.Nh5+ Kh8 15.Nf6 = Kg7 16.Qh4!? Rh8 17.Ne8+ Kg8 18.Nf6+, draw.

White has a third option: 5.a3 Nf6 (5...Nge7 6.b4; 5...a5? 6.Qh5) 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bxf6 Bxf6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 Re8 10.f3, when the computer suggests the amusing 10...Bg5!? 11.f4 Bf6 12.e5 Bh4 13.g3 Be7 =.

SWJediknight wrote on 09/26/12 at 12:51:35:
I can certainly see merit in this Fyfe Gambit analysis, as we've already seen that the lines 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 and 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 were under-rated by theory for a long time, so how about 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4?  It seems playable enough for casual and blitz games, but if White is after a reasonably sound d4-gambit then the Italian/Max Lange lines are better.  For this reason I doubt that the Fyfe Gambit will ever gain much popularity.

Disagreements about risky openings will remain. Is 1.c4 g5 +0.70 or +0.30? Hard to say. However, it is easier to achieve consensus about the relative merits of openings. When you say: Soller-Gambit < Hübsch Gambit < BDG, I'll agree, and it seems possible that Bibs and Markovich would agree, too. - So what you are saying in effect is: Fyfe Gambit < Max Lange Gambit. I'd agree and add: German Ouch Gambit < Bulgarian Ouch Gambit < Fyfe Gambit. But where in this relation-chain belongs the Belgrade Gambit? I'd say it is very close to the Fyfe Gambit in my present "relative order". So if the Belgrade can be played otb, why not the Fyfe?   
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #231 - 09/26/12 at 14:38:15
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I've started a thread in the general chess section called "Chess Archaeology".

Edited:
Please, if you have personal problems with another member here, try to keep it personal. Do not bring these issues into the forum.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #230 - 09/26/12 at 14:36:18
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/26/12 at 14:24:12:
I like the concept of "Chess Archaeology", but such a section would not have more than a couple contributors.

Having said that, it would be interesting to start a thread on chess archaeology in the general chat section!

I had something like this in mind with my "Nomenclature of chess openings: an Indian Jungle" thread. It was about chess history, and I intended a more personal approach than in other threads. Hadron's claim that the OP of a thread is an "owner" and has the right to close it was strange. However, I can see that a thread like Markovich's "Spanish Repertoire" requires that there is one person who decides about the direction.

Similarly, I wouldn't have a principal problem with a thread titled "The MacCutcheon - analytical thread, no history".
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #229 - 09/26/12 at 14:28:03
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/26/12 at 14:24:12:
I like the concept of "Chess Archaeology", but such a section would not have more than a couple contributors.

Having said that, it would be interesting to start a thread on chess archaeology in the general chat section!


Chess archaeology would presuppose a very good library of old chess sources, it would seem.  There are many 19th-century analyses that would be interesting to review, for example.
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #228 - 09/26/12 at 14:24:12
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I like the concept of "Chess Archaeology", but such a section would not have more than a couple contributors.

Having said that, it would be interesting to start a thread on chess archaeology in the general chat section!
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #227 - 09/26/12 at 12:51:35
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With some assistance from Rybka I have found another possibility for Black (apologies if someone else found it earlier in the thread).

The point is that with 5...Nge7, Black avoids the transposition to the Belgrade Gambit with 5...Nf6, and the main advantage of this is that 6.Bg5 is hit by 6...f6.  I feel that White is able to get some, but not enough, compensation for the pawn.
If I was Black against this I would also be tempted by the solid 3...Nxd4 4.f4 d6, which looks a little better for Black in the lines TalJechin looked at although White does get some initiative.

I can certainly see merit in this Fyfe Gambit analysis, as we've already seen that the lines 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 and 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 were under-rated by theory for a long time, so how about 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4?  It seems playable enough for casual and blitz games, but if White is after a reasonably sound d4-gambit then the Italian/Max Lange lines are better.  For this reason I doubt that the Fyfe Gambit will ever gain much popularity.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #226 - 09/26/12 at 08:03:08
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/25/12 at 23:46:33:
TalJechin wrote on 09/24/12 at 23:09:39:
The difference:

a lot of people play the Colle and no one plays the Fyfe and yet the Colle discussion took a few weeks and the Fyfe goes on and on month after month after month, with you posting replies to yourself apparently just to keep your thread on top. [...]
And is there really nothing new in major openings like the Scotch or Petroff since April 3rd when Hadron first mentioned the Fyfe? Or is this thread keeping new topics away from being noticed by hogging the top slot on the forum front?

We are free to decide what we post, right? I posted on the Marshall Attack, the Mason Gambit and a few others.

Hadron asked about the Fyfe on April 3rd 2011, not 2012. He tried again on June 25th 2012. Later he locked his threads which brought him only ridicule and an insult from Markovich. I started this thread on July 4th, after a June with very low posting activity by members. July wasn't better, in three Olympic weeks interest was low. It is absurd to say that the Fyfe thread had a negative effect. Last year, activity in summer has been just as bad. ... The thread belongs where it is and it won't be moved. Next you'll move the Latvian Gambit to chit chat?


...
Ooops, 2011 - didn't notice that. But if you read what he says in that post he states that he's not interested in any engine debate, and just wants some more historic info on Fyfe and his gambit - which would fit nicely into a chess history section.

...
To me (and hopefully many others here), chess theory is the study of the games that are played and how they evolve as response to earlier games - and since no one plays the Fyfe anymore it's not theory, it's history. Simple as that.

Edited:
Edited to remove references to a personal attack.  ~SF October 4, 2012
« Last Edit: 10/04/12 at 13:16:22 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #225 - 09/26/12 at 01:29:53
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I think the Fyffe Gambit parts of this  thread are perfectly fine, contain a great deal of interesting detail, and belong where they are. I also think that the chess argumentation here proceeds more or less in defiance of common sense in chess and is too trusting of computerized evaluations. There always seems to be a hoop-jumping analytical rejoinder to every objection to this gambit, to the extent that the alternative to infinite argumentation is silence. When I recently said that hyperbolically, my post was removed, so I'll say it in plain English. If the Fyffe Gambit is sound, then I am an idiot, but I am not prepared personally to engage in endless rounds of analysis here to dispute the point.

Substantively, I never even debated the critical lines here, but only the very interesting   4...d5!? Even so. dreadful and bigotted person that I am, I modestly claim to have contributed as much hard chess to this subject as anyone else here. ...

Also I think that the other gambits discussed here should have been discussed separately.

Edited:
Edited to remove comments that fueled a personal conflict ~SF September 27, 2012.
« Last Edit: 09/26/12 at 14:21:39 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #224 - 09/25/12 at 23:46:33
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TalJechin wrote on 09/24/12 at 23:09:39:
The difference:

a lot of people play the Colle and no one plays the Fyfe and yet the Colle discussion took a few weeks and the Fyfe goes on and on month after month after month, with you posting replies to yourself apparently just to keep your thread on top. [...]
And is there really nothing new in major openings like the Scotch or Petroff since April 3rd when Hadron first mentioned the Fyfe? Or is this thread keeping new topics away from being noticed by hogging the top slot on the forum front?

We are free to decide what we post, right? I posted on the Marshall Attack, the Mason Gambit and a few others.

Hadron asked about the Fyfe on April 3rd 2011, not 2012. He tried again on June 25th 2012. Later he locked his threads which brought him only ridicule and an insult from Markovich. I started this thread on July 4th, after a June with very low posting activity by members. July wasn't better, in three Olympic weeks interest was low. It is absurd to say that the Fyfe thread had a negative effect. Last year, activity in summer has been just as bad. - ...

Edited:
Edited to remove a personal attack. ~SF October 4 2012
« Last Edit: 10/04/12 at 13:14:20 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #223 - 09/25/12 at 07:57:57
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Just a poll to see what the majority of members here think about this.

You can vote for seven days and then the result will be revealed.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #222 - 09/25/12 at 06:46:39
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/24/12 at 19:25:11:
Intersting how the human mind works. Master OM brought a new idea looking reasonable and everybody starts cutting it down with opening a discussion about whatsoeverbutnotthetopic.  Grin You must love chess.  Roll Eyes



Thanks. Smiley
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #221 - 09/25/12 at 06:29:35
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Some have asked for a moderator to step in.

The problem as I see it is not this thread, but the dearth of activity in other threads. If an interesting idea comes along in another thread, this will slowly die away.

So the onus is on the members. If you want this thread to become irrelevant, post interesting ideas in other 1.e4 e5 threads!
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #220 - 09/25/12 at 05:49:40
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/24/12 at 20:37:30:
The main line given by Master Om: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qf6 9.Bc4!

An important move, I believe. White encourages Black to castle short. This matters so much that White invests a full tempo (soon this bishop retreats to d3). If instead 9.Bd3? d6 10.0-0 Ne7 11.f5 Bd7 12.Bd2 h6 13.a4 a5, and Black will be able to castle long; White has zilch compensation.

9...Ne7 10.0-0 0-0 11.f5!.

Better than 11.Bb3 =+ (Master Om), in my opinion.

11...b6 12.Bd3 Bb7 13.Qh5! Qc6 14.f6, and White has sufficient compensation for the pawns.

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I feel Bb3!  is a better move than f5!. Still I will check.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #219 - 09/25/12 at 04:54:47
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/24/12 at 09:55:10:
Alias wrote on 09/24/12 at 07:12:52:
3) I don't think it's necessary to keep all discussions on topic and move off topic replies to a new discussion. It makes the forum less exiting.

I strongly agree. But I also insist that, in this thread of mine, any mockery should come with a new move. Markovich, don't you agree that Master Om's new idea 4...Bc5!? 5.fxe5 d6!? is highly interesting and in the same spirit as your 4...d5? Maybe the idea makes even more "common" sense than d5, if you ask me.

Master Om, thanks for your detailed analysis with inspiring novelties. In the variation 4...Bc5 5.fxe5 d6 6.Bf4 Ne6 7.Bg3 h5, White can also play 8.h4 (instead of 8.Qd2) when 8...c6 seems best (8...dxe5 is just equal): 9.Nf3 Qb6 10.a3 (10.Qd3 Qxb2 11.Rb1 Qa3 12.Nd2 Bb4 13.Rxb4 may be unsound) 10...dxe5 (this pawn is taboo: 11.Nxe5? Qxb2! 12.Na4 Qd4) 11.Na4 Qa5+ 12.c3 Be7 13.b4 Qd8 with a microscopic plus for Black.

Chess is difficult enough, when there exists a position with Q+N vs R + N + B which is won for White in 517 moves. I didn't claim that the Bulgarian Ouch is correct. Maybe the Fyfe is correct, who knows? "Wishful thinking" - would you enlighten us, Markovich, why you believe that chess is such a simple game that you can know, just know, that 3.d4 is an error?



Well 4...Bc5!? is my Idea in the spirit of what I play like against gambits in the philosophy of Lasker's Idea. This move gives more chances to black to win in OTB scenario.

I have posted only 1/4 th of my analysis. All your lines mentioned are there in my analysis and is sound (not Unsound) and no Microscopic Advantage as its slightly better than that. Here are they


Still Blacks advantage is not winnable. So Fyfe's idea not unsound.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #218 - 09/25/12 at 02:04:15
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It would seem that the patients have taken over the asylum, in this thread anyway.
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #217 - 09/25/12 at 01:21:59
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Bibs wrote on 09/25/12 at 00:45:16:
TalJechin wrote on 09/24/12 at 23:09:39:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/24/12 at 13:05:24:
Taljechin, a few weeks ago some members found it interesting to discuss about the "majority on the queenside", in the context of the Colle System. Now here we have a thread which discusses how many tempi you need to compensate for the d-pawn, in the context of the Fyfe Gambit. What's the difference? 


The difference:

a lot of people play the Colle and no one plays the Fyfe and yet the Colle discussion took a few weeks and the Fyfe goes on and on month after month after month, with you posting replies to yourself apparently just to keep your thread on top.

FYI: your last 25 posts (probably even more, but the system here only shows up to 25) were all in this thread. Is there really no other subject of interest to you in the whole forum?

And is there really nothing new in major openings like the Scotch or Petroff since April 3rd when Hadron first mentioned the Fyfe? Or is this thread keeping new topics away from being noticed by hogging the top slot on the forum front?


Agree. Totally agree with TJ.
This is a waste of time and effort. Largely the whim of one member.
Moderators?
Rubbish that noone plays.
Detracts from discussion of stuff that will be of interest and use to forum members.

Gosh! Some pretty harsh comments, Bibs aren't you a moderator else where? I can't see how it is a waste of time and or effort if people where not interested in answering Stefan's posts then they wouldn't and the then the whole Fyfe (and whatever has stemmed from it) issue would just dry up and blow away...but it hasn't....so it is not just the whim of Stefan, people are interested in what he has to say and purport.
I dunno....if you don't like wot Stefan is doing, find something new to talk about then..?!
Have a nice day
Grin
Hadron.
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #216 - 09/25/12 at 00:45:16
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TalJechin wrote on 09/24/12 at 23:09:39:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/24/12 at 13:05:24:
Taljechin, a few weeks ago some members found it interesting to discuss about the "majority on the queenside", in the context of the Colle System. Now here we have a thread which discusses how many tempi you need to compensate for the d-pawn, in the context of the Fyfe Gambit. What's the difference? 


The difference:

a lot of people play the Colle and no one plays the Fyfe and yet the Colle discussion took a few weeks and the Fyfe goes on and on month after month after month, with you posting replies to yourself apparently just to keep your thread on top.

FYI: your last 25 posts (probably even more, but the system here only shows up to 25) were all in this thread. Is there really no other subject of interest to you in the whole forum?

And is there really nothing new in major openings like the Scotch or Petroff since April 3rd when Hadron first mentioned the Fyfe? Or is this thread keeping new topics away from being noticed by hogging the top slot on the forum front?


Agree. Totally agree with TJ.
This is a waste of time and effort. Largely the whim of one member.
Moderators?
Rubbish that noone plays.
Detracts from discussion of stuff that will be of interest and use to forum members.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #215 - 09/24/12 at 23:09:39
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/24/12 at 13:05:24:
Taljechin, a few weeks ago some members found it interesting to discuss about the "majority on the queenside", in the context of the Colle System. Now here we have a thread which discusses how many tempi you need to compensate for the d-pawn, in the context of the Fyfe Gambit. What's the difference? 


The difference:

a lot of people play the Colle and no one plays the Fyfe and yet the Colle discussion took a few weeks and the Fyfe goes on and on month after month after month, with you posting replies to yourself apparently just to keep your thread on top.

FYI: your last 25 posts (probably even more, but the system here only shows up to 25) were all in this thread. Is there really no other subject of interest to you in the whole forum?

And is there really nothing new in major openings like the Scotch or Petroff since April 3rd when Hadron first mentioned the Fyfe? Or is this thread keeping new topics away from being noticed by hogging the top slot on the forum front?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #214 - 09/24/12 at 20:37:30
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The main line given by Master Om: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 Nxd4 4.f4 Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qf6 9.Bc4!

An important move, I believe. White encourages Black to castle short. This matters so much that White invests a full tempo (soon this bishop retreats to d3). If instead 9.Bd3? d6 10.0-0 Ne7 11.f5 Bd7 12.Bd2 h6 13.a4 a5, and Black will be able to castle long; White has zilch compensation.

9...Ne7 10.0-0 0-0 11.f5!.

Better than 11.Bb3 =+ (Master Om), in my opinion.

11...b6 12.Bd3 Bb7 13.Qh5! Qc6 14.f6, and White has sufficient compensation for the pawns.

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #213 - 09/24/12 at 19:25:11
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Intersting how the human mind works. Master OM brought a new idea looking reasonable and everybody starts cutting it down with opening a discussion about whatsoeverbutnotthetopic.  Grin You must love chess.  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #212 - 09/24/12 at 16:34:50
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Reminiscent of the Immortal Game (1. e4 e5 2. f4 ef 3. Bc4 Qh4+ 4. Kf1 b5).

Those ...b5s after 2. Bc4 seem like they could amount to a sort of clearly inferior reversed Evans or clearly inferior reversed KGD.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #211 - 09/24/12 at 16:11:57
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Well, 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 b5!? 3.Bxb5 c6 looks playable, Black has won 4 out of 6 games, and it dates all the way back to 1856, played by some Adolf Anderssen
Btw, 3...c6! is an improvement on an earlier game from 1851 where Anderssen played the daring 3...f5, but lost (but maybe 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 f5!? 3.d3 b5!? is playable)
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #210 - 09/24/12 at 15:21:43
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MartinC wrote on 09/24/12 at 13:14:43:
(Very much like the frequent discussions cf trying to finally refute the BDG really.).


At least the BDG does have followers who believe in the gambit and play it occasionally or in some cases every time they get the chance.

If it's so interesting with bad gambits that no one plays, we can start some more threads on e.g.

1.e4 e5 Why only blunder the d-pawn, when there are seven other pawns...!? Lets start with the b-pawn:

2.b4 - a fantastic idea dating back all the way to 1921. Who knows what older sources there may be?

2.c4 b5 A completely new important discovery?

2.b4 Nf6 3.g4 Imagination beyond comprehension in juro-babylyub, ICS 1998.

2.Nf3 b5 Could the fantastic sacrificial idea work with a tempo less - who knows?! It was tried in for example babylyub-guest23 ICS unrated blitz 1998. White won, but maybe Black has some improvements?

  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #209 - 09/24/12 at 13:14:43
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Not archeology, its more like experimental phsyics Smiley

The thesis is clearly that white can play a move even this utterly absurd and still not be losing by force.

Obviously ones instinct is that it jolly well should be, and quite easily too! However there seems to be some good, a priori, evidence that it isn't. So its interesting to analyse.
(Very much like the frequent discussions cf trying to finally refute the BDG really.).
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #208 - 09/24/12 at 13:05:24
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Taljechin, a few weeks ago some members found it interesting to discuss about the "majority on the queenside", in the context of the Colle System. Now here we have a thread which discusses how many tempi you need to compensate for the d-pawn, in the context of the Fyfe Gambit. What's the difference? That the Fyfe isn't played much is quite a lousy argument. Everybody can see that the Fyfe is an extreme idea. So what?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #207 - 09/24/12 at 13:03:32
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[quote author=685D5076595F5455523C0 link=1341412133/206#206 date=1348489209]
I don't mind a theoretical discussion on how to punish a dubious pawn blunder, if the discussion is interesting and to the point - but by now most of the replies here seem only intended to keep this thread on top, everlasting.

Maybe it could star in a new section on chess archaeology instead?
[/quote]
Seems like some people have way too much free time. Is the world really so boring that they have to resort to discussions like this to pass time?
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #206 - 09/24/12 at 12:20:09
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This topic has been on top for what seems like an eternity - or something like six months in a row at least.

And still the entire subject is rubbish if we use the usual opening criteria:

1) it's rarely played by anyone over 1300 - and when it is, the game scores sometimes suggests that it's more a faulty game score than a real game.

2) the game material is not only unreliable and low rated, it's also very old (for the games Stefan has dug up) or it's online blitz games.

3) despite the half year debate here, it's not more popular recently. The latest game with it in my base is still from 2009.

4) if no one, not even Stefan himself, believes in the opening enough to regularly play it vs reasonably strong opponents - what's the point of endlessly debating here whether the engines can manage to avoid losing as White? We could just as well discuss recipes for inedible food.

A sample of the game material, 3 games = 16,66 % of the game material with the Fyfe in my biggest base...

[pgn][Event "ZN.2006.0.00130"]
[Site "LSS"]
[Date "2006.12.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Yasaka, Anquin"]
[Black "York, John"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B00"]
[WhiteElo "800"]
[BlackElo "800"]
[PlyCount "20"]
[EventDate "2006.12.01"]
[EventType "match (corr)"]
[Source "Chess Mail Ltd"]
[SourceDate "2008.09.12"]

1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. d4 d5 (3... exd4 4. Bc4 dxc3 5. Qd5 Qe7 6. Bg5 Qe6 7.
Qd3 Ne5 8. Qxc3 Nxc4 9. f3 Be7 10. Bxe7 Nxe7 11. Qxg7 Ng6 12. b3 Nce5 13. Qh6
d5 14. Qd2 Bd7 15. exd5 Nxf3+ 16. Kd1 Nxd2 17. dxe6 Bxe6 18. Kxd2 O-O-O+ 19.
Kc1 Nf4 20. Kb2 Nxg2 21. Nf3 Bd5 22. Rhf1 Ne3 23. Rf2 Bxf3 24. Rxf3 Nd5 25. Rd1
Rhf8 26. c4 Nb6 27. Rxd8+ Kxd8 28. Rd3+ Kc8 29. c5 Nd7 30. b4 Ne5 31. Ra3 Nc4+
32. Kb3 Nxa3 33. Kxa3 Rd8 34. b5 Rd5 35. Kb4 a5+ 36. Kc4 c6 37. b6 f5 {
1-0 Bolanos Gonzalez,A-Garcia Vera,A/Aviles 2003/EXT 2004}) (3... Bc5 4. Bb5 d6
5. Bxc6+ bxc6 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. O-O O-O 8. Bg5 h6 9. h3 exd4 10. Nxd4 hxg5 11. Nxc6
Qe8 12. Nxa7 Rxa7 13. a3 Bg4 14. Qd3 Rb7 15. Na4 Nxe4 16. Qa6 Rb8 17. c3 Nd2
18. Rfe1 Qd7 19. b4 Bb6 20. Qd3 Nb3 21. Rab1 Rfe8 22. Re4 Bf5 23. Rc4 Bxd3 24.
Rxc7 Bxc7 25. Rxb3 Qxa4 26. Rb1 Bxb1 27. h4 d5 28. g3 Be4 29. g4 gxh4 30. g5
Qd1# {0-1 Candassamy,H-Ah Soune,G/Etang Sale 2000/EXT 2001}) 4. Nf3 exd4 5.
exd5 dxc3 6. dxc6 Qxd1+ 7. Kxd1 cxb2 8. cxb7 bxa1=Q 9. bxa8=Q Ba3 10. Be2 Qxc1#
0-1

[/pgn]


[quote]I also insist that, in this thread of mine, any mockery should come with a new move. [/quote]

Only if every new post of yours in this thread contain a new game you have played with or against the Fyfe in an Elorated long game against an opponent rated no less than 100 points below you.

I don't mind a theoretical discussion on how to punish a dubious pawn blunder, if the discussion is interesting and to the point - but by now most of the replies here seem only intended to keep this thread on top, everlasting.

Maybe it could star in a new section on chess archaeology instead?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #205 - 09/24/12 at 09:55:10
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Alias wrote on 09/24/12 at 07:12:52:
3) I don't think it's necessary to keep all discussions on topic and move off topic replies to a new discussion. It makes the forum less exiting.

I strongly agree. But I also insist that, in this thread of mine, any mockery should come with a new move. Markovich, don't you agree that Master Om's new idea 4...Bc5!? 5.fxe5 d6!? is highly interesting and in the same spirit as your 4...d5? Maybe the idea makes even more "common" sense than d5, if you ask me.

Master Om, thanks for your detailed analysis with inspiring novelties. In the variation 4...Bc5 5.fxe5 d6 6.Bf4 Ne6 7.Bg3 h5, White can also play 8.h4 (instead of 8.Qd2) when 8...c6 seems best (8...dxe5 is just equal): 9.Nf3 Qb6 10.a3 (10.Qd3 Qxb2 11.Rb1 Qa3 12.Nd2 Bb4 13.Rxb4 may be unsound) 10...dxe5 (this pawn is taboo: 11.Nxe5? Qxb2! 12.Na4 Qd4) 11.Na4 Qa5+ 12.c3 Be7 13.b4 Qd8 with a microscopic plus for Black.

Chess is difficult enough, when there exists a position with Q+N vs R + N + B which is won for White in 517 moves. I didn't claim that the Bulgarian Ouch is correct. Maybe the Fyfe is correct, who knows? "Wishful thinking" - would you enlighten us, Markovich, why you believe that chess is such a simple game that you can know, just know, that 3.d4 is an error?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #204 - 09/24/12 at 08:27:33
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Markovich wrote on 09/24/12 at 03:02:27:
Chess is a very simple game, Brent Larsen was a great chess player, and the d-pawn may be sacrificed with impunity in the strange world that constitutes this thread. This is the world of Wishing-Makes-It-So, where with a little computerized prestidigitation, compensation appears like magic to replace dead pawns, and common sense in chess is repeatedly shown to be a delusion. Oh, to be a Maestro in this universe of negative gravity and compensation that is always some positive multiple of the square root of -1. Wait, what's that signpost up ahead?

I think this is a good example of the complexity of the chess player and how they might perceive themselves

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/24/12 at 04:43:00:
Ok, time to get back on topic.
What was the topic again?

Always happy to oblige boss but I hasn’t there been several?

Alias wrote on 09/24/12 at 07:12:52:
1) It's Bent, not Brent!
2) Of course the game is complex given the number of possible positions and the difficult in evaluating them.
3) I don't think it's necessary to keep all discussions on topic and move off topic replies to a new discussion. It makes the forum less exiting.

(1)My apologies sir, you are quite right!
(2) Well, maybe yes and maybe no. Unless you have a mate or forced moves, you are always come to an opinion on with your analysis
(3) Forum rules I think…

Have a nice day
Hadron
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #203 - 09/24/12 at 07:12:52
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1) It's Bent, not Brent!
2) Of course the game is complex given the number of possible positions and the difficult in evaluating them.
3) I don't think it's necessary to keep all discussions on topic and move off topic replies to a new discussion. It makes the forum less exiting.
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #202 - 09/24/12 at 04:43:00
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Ok, time to get back on topic.

What was the topic again?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #201 - 09/24/12 at 03:02:27
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Chess is a very simple game, Brent Larsen was a great chess player, and the d-pawn may be sacrificed with impunity in the strange world that constitutes this thread. This is the world of Wishing-Makes-It-So, where with a little computerized prestidigitation, compensation appears like magic to replace dead pawns, and common sense in chess is repeatedly shown to be a delusion. Oh, to be a Maestro in this universe of negative gravity and compensation that is always some positive multiple of the square root of -1. Wait, what's that signpost up ahead?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #200 - 09/23/12 at 23:53:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/21/12 at 09:25:38:
"Chess is a difficult game", said Bent Larsen. In my "Englund Gambit" I wrote that the Soller is +/-, and I still believe it is not sound. But the BDG is a different kind of animal, and we also have the "grey zone" of draw.

Maestro, with respect to you and the greatness of Brent Larsen I don't think chess is all that difficult a game. I will even go out on a limb and say that the game itself is relatively simple. The rules of the game are not all that complex. If there is any real ‘difficulty’ in playing the game, I don’t think it lies in the game itself but in the complexity of the people that play it and or are involved with it and exactly what perceptions they have in and while doing as such. After all, are 'perceptions' not the basis of opinions and doesn't chess (theory) largely move on opinons?
Hadron
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #199 - 09/23/12 at 02:52:53
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/21/12 at 09:25:38:
MartinC wrote on 09/20/12 at 11:00:02:
I guess the other thing to bear in mind is how low the standard for white to mantain equality is early on - is this really that much sillier than either the Smith-Morra or BDG?

True, White can afford more than Black. In the Soller Gambit, Diemer at first tried to play d7-d5, in analogy to the BDG. When he saw that pawn d5 was too vulnerable, he changed to d7-d6 in the Soller. One tempo made a big difference. Similarly, it is a key question in the Hübsch whether d4 can be successfully attacked. According to Tartakower, in the first three moves one can play everything. But eventually you have to go with d7-d6, when you are a tempo behind, or you have to play the cautious 5.Be3 instead of "active" moves like Bf4 or Bc4 in the Hübsch.  Smiley


"Chess is a difficult game", said Bent Larsen. In my "Englund Gambit" I wrote that the Soller is +/-, and I still believe it is not sound. But the BDG is a different kind of animal, and we also have the "grey zone" of draw.



And this damn gambit is difficult to analyse. Here is my take on it.
« Last Edit: 09/23/12 at 07:37:56 by Master Om »  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #198 - 09/21/12 at 09:25:38
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MartinC wrote on 09/20/12 at 11:00:02:
I guess the other thing to bear in mind is how low the standard for white to mantain equality is early on - is this really that much sillier than either the Smith-Morra or BDG?

True, White can afford more than Black. In the Soller Gambit, Diemer at first tried to play d7-d5, in analogy to the BDG. When he saw that pawn d5 was too vulnerable, he changed to d7-d6 in the Soller. One tempo made a big difference. Similarly, it is a key question in the Hübsch whether d4 can be successfully attacked. According to Tartakower, in the first three moves one can play everything. But eventually you have to go with d7-d6, when you are a tempo behind, or you have to play the cautious 5.Be3 instead of "active" moves like Bf4 or Bc4 in the Hübsch.  Smiley


"Chess is a difficult game", said Bent Larsen. In my "Englund Gambit" I wrote that the Soller is +/-, and I still believe it is not sound. But the BDG is a different kind of animal, and we also have the "grey zone" of draw.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #197 - 09/20/12 at 11:00:02
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I guess the other thing to bear in mind is how low the standard for white to mantain equality is early on - is this really that much sillier than either the Smith-Morra or BDG?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #196 - 09/20/12 at 09:20:36
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/20/12 at 08:05:56:
Bibs wrote on 09/17/12 at 11:52:19:
But no idea about your Hans Haberditz.
....
In 1955 Hans Haberditz invented 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Bg5 Ne4 4.Bf4 e5!.   Shocked

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Yeah, great find btw!  Cheesy
Even Jaan Ehlvest played it once (against Rivas Pastor in 1991) in a classic game. My notes about it:



Sorry for the off-topic!  Embarrassed
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #195 - 09/20/12 at 08:40:45
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Thank you for this explanations. I did follow the lines of this topic and played a little bit around with further moves. The effect was astonishment why this came always to lines near equality.

Clearly being between two or three standard deviations beyond gm level I always thought this reflects only my lack of technique (which is still the most important factor imo). But you gave a positional explanation to rework on some lines.  Smiley
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #194 - 09/20/12 at 08:05:56
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Bibs wrote on 09/17/12 at 11:52:19:
But no idea about your Hans Haberditz.

Renowned Austrian analyst of an era when Vienna was one of the centers of opening research: Ernst Grünfeld, Hans Kmoch, Hans Müller, Albert Becker. Haberditz published his ideas from the late 1940s until his death in 1957. There is a "Haberditz Variation" in the French and another in the Sicilian. He is said to be the first to study what became the "Vienna Variation", which can arise via the Nimzo Indian or the Queen's Gambit (though databases have sporadic earlier games). - The Oxford Companion to Chess has lots of facts about the history of chess. A great and entertaining book, warmly recommended.

The Fyfe belongs to a rare subset of gambits: those where the pawn is taken by a piece, instead of a pawn. With the result that the pawn structure remains "mostly intact", the gambiteer has an open file. Like 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2, but then the g-file isn't essential for White. Studying cases like the Fyfe is of interest since it gives a clue about the value of an open file. It comes close, by the way, to the experience of giving odds of "pawn and move", popular around 1840. Staunton once offered "pawn and move" to a lesser master. The offer was rejected, because "he wasn't sure whether the open f-file wasn't an advantage rather than a handicap for Black".  Cheesy

In 1955 Hans Haberditz invented 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Bg5 Ne4 4.Bf4 e5!.   Shocked

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #193 - 09/18/12 at 11:46:49
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/18/12 at 07:59:49:
Master Om wrote on 09/18/12 at 00:55:18:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/17/12 at 19:04:56:
Hello Master Om,
now I am very curious: what is the best continuation?

I need one more day to give u the complete analysis.

Thanks. I am looking forward to your contribution. The Fyfe Gambit remains the main topic of this thread.

Less relevant, but the Bulgarian Ouch can give us some hints. Meta-theory isn't the real thing - "Die Variante triumphiert" [The variation triumphs], as Alapin put it. But it can help to consider general rules and concepts. One of these is Tarrasch's "three tempi are worth a pawn". The exchange on f6 costs White time - approximately one tempo, if you can accept that castling long is a good idea for Black. What else? To which extent does Black profit from g2-g3 in an attack on opposite flanks? Could it be worth one tempo or rather two?

Actually my line of reasoning was meant to go like this: the move g2-g3 is a welcome gift for Black, the Bulgarian Ouch would be unplayable without this concession. However, in the Fyfe Gambit, without g7-g6, the whole concept looks more dubious. White has an extra tempo, because he is White, but I guess that the omission of g7-g6 weighs more than that.

I have called Bibs "elliptical", because his posts practice ellipsis, the art of omission. But what I admire in writing style, is less admirable in chess analysis: jumping to premature conclusions.



Hello Mr Buecker.
                        I have started my anlaysis from the position I posted above. The last time I posted I was criticized heavily but I don't mind as it brings out the truth.
I will hence post again. Lets see the response.

But got to admit that this gambit is very versatile. Lots of varieties of moves and one wrong move white gains advantage. My analysis is almost ready. Tomorrow is Ganesh Puja and I will post tomorrow.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #192 - 09/18/12 at 07:59:49
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Master Om wrote on 09/18/12 at 00:55:18:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/17/12 at 19:04:56:
Hello Master Om,
now I am very curious: what is the best continuation?

I need one more day to give u the complete analysis.

Thanks. I am looking forward to your contribution. The Fyfe Gambit remains the main topic of this thread.

Less relevant, but the Bulgarian Ouch can give us some hints. Meta-theory isn't the real thing - "Die Variante triumphiert" [The variation triumphs], as Alapin put it. But it can help to consider general rules and concepts. One of these is Tarrasch's "three tempi are worth a pawn". The exchange on f6 costs White time - approximately one tempo, if you can accept that castling long is a good idea for Black. What else? To which extent does Black profit from g2-g3 in an attack on opposite flanks? Could it be worth one tempo or rather two?

Actually my line of reasoning was meant to go like this: the move g2-g3 is a welcome gift for Black, the Bulgarian Ouch would be unplayable without this concession. However, in the Fyfe Gambit, without g7-g6, the whole concept looks more dubious. White has an extra tempo, because he is White, but I guess that the omission of g7-g6 weighs more than that.

I have called Bibs "elliptical", because his posts practice ellipsis, the art of omission. But what I admire in writing style, is less admirable in chess analysis: jumping to premature conclusions.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #191 - 09/18/12 at 00:55:18
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/17/12 at 19:04:56:
Hello Master Om,
now I am very curious: what is the best continuation?



I need one more day to give u the complete analysis.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #190 - 09/17/12 at 19:04:56
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Hello Master Om,
now I am very curious: what is the best continuation?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #189 - 09/17/12 at 15:52:29
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Hello Mr Stefan I feel the move 4...Bb4 is not the best continuation here though d5 is the 2nd best move.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #188 - 09/17/12 at 12:19:37
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/17/12 at 12:04:13:
Who's Harry Hill?


Brit comic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Hill

Which reminded me of the Henry Hill omission. Criminal.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #187 - 09/17/12 at 12:04:13
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Who's Harry Hill?
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #186 - 09/17/12 at 11:52:19
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I trust my judgment here. Suspect whimsy (German humour?) your end - nothing debatable here.

Know Heinrich Himmler, Herbie Hancock, Harry Hill. And Heidi. But no idea about your Hans Haberditz.

Your comments re KG, dragon, g2 bishop. Roger Irrelevant.

Come on, some people here may read your comments and take your efforts at face value, as an attempt at a reasonable judgment coupled with sensible analysis. Just piles and piles of something quite smelly.

Black k-side attack? Nope. With h6, Qg7, f6, g5 (finally). Not catching any buses.

White d3, Be3, b4, Qa4. Or anything really.

1-0
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #185 - 09/16/12 at 07:55:28
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Bibs wrote on 09/16/12 at 01:30:02:
Take a step back. Ignore what one would want to be.

What do you think I want to be? The reincarnation of Hans Haberditz?  Grin

Bibs wrote on 09/16/12 at 01:30:02:
Black is simply a pawn down in all of this. For nothing.

How can you be so sure? We have a very specific situation here: castling to opposite sides, pawn storm, fianchetto g3 a target, Bg2 unable to assist in attack. Both sides attack, both sides defend. Unclear positions are good for Black. Open d-file gives relief. Why do you think White prefers cxb3 over axb3 in the Dragon? Why is White's Kg1 safer in the King's Gambit than his opponent's?

I'll check 12.Be3. It may or may not be an improvement. Black can continue 12...Be7 or 12...Ne7 or something else.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #184 - 09/16/12 at 01:30:02
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kylemeister wrote on 09/15/12 at 21:44:37:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/15/12 at 19:34:19:
(7. d3 {(recommended by Bibs)} 7... O-O-O 8. Nf3 h6 9. O-O g5 10. c3 Qg7 11.b4 Kb8 12. b5 Na5 13. d4 f6 14. d5 Bd7 15. Qe2 h5 16. Nd2 Bg4 17. Qd3 h4 {comp.})


Looks like a lot of pawn moves.  12. Be3 seems quite bad for Black. 


Agree.
Black is simply a pawn down in all of this. For nothing.

Take a step back. Ignore what one would want to be. Look at the positions that arise after:
6. Nf6: 
7. d3.
Black simply a pawn down.

The ardour of Vass/Buecker is to be applauded, but it appears misdirected.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #183 - 09/15/12 at 21:44:37
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/15/12 at 19:34:19:
(7. d3 {(recommended by Bibs)} 7... O-O-O 8. Nf3 h6 9. O-O g5 10. c3 Qg7 11.b4 Kb8 12. b5 Na5 13. d4 f6 14. d5 Bd7 15. Qe2 h5 16. Nd2 Bg4 17. Qd3 h4 {comp.})


Looks like a lot of pawn moves.  12. Be3 seems quite bad for Black. 
« Last Edit: 09/15/12 at 23:20:16 by kylemeister »  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #182 - 09/15/12 at 20:01:34
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Well if nothing else its a fascinating experiment in terms of just how silly white can be without having a trivially (or even at all) lost position Smiley Or for that matter black.....
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #181 - 09/15/12 at 19:34:19
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I still have my doubts whether 6.Ne3 is "silly analysis" (Bibs). But let's look at the alternative. This stem game of the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit was contributed by Vass (reply #114). I have added a few comments.

  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #180 - 09/13/12 at 09:43:18
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/12/12 at 18:07:12:
For me, the key would be to get the R on a1 active. With that in mind, either Bd2 or a4!? look the most enterprising. In fact, of those lines, only line 10 seems to offer something that looks like a coherent plan rather than a mélange of random moves.

I agree: what we need is a coherent plan for White. But to me a2-a4 looks more like a waiting move, and with a5 and Kb8 Black does the same. If the engine has no constructive idea for either side, how can White argue that the extra pawn counts?

I tried again, suppressing all the lame c2-c3 stuff, and at depth 23 the engine came up with the following: 13.Qe2 Nd4 14.Qd2 Nc6 15.Qd1!!.  Grin

So what does this mean? Should White repeat the maneuver Qe2-d2-d1 a hundred times, until Black runs out of useful moves? Or is perhaps already 12. Nxe6 an error?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #179 - 09/12/12 at 18:07:12
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For me, the key would be to get the R on a1 active. With that in mind, either Bd2 or a4!? look the most enterprising. In fact, of those lines, only line 10 seems to offer something that looks like a coherent plan rather than a mélange of random moves.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #178 - 09/12/12 at 14:00:01
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Thanks Vass. I agree about Dr Georgi Popov. There are other men whose work is almost forgotten, who published great analyses: Hans Haberditz, Dr Balogh, Alapin, Svenonius, Cordel, Rosentreter, and many more. George Brimpton Fraser was one of the leading theoreticians in England around 1900. Sometimes a strong OTB player questioned analysis of these second-rank workers, who were better in analysis than otb. Often resulting in a "paper war". - There was a Yearbook article on the Suhle-Anderssen Variation. I compared the article with original analyses by Anderssen in the 1860s, and came to the conclusion that Anderssen's article was better.  Grin

It is nice to have engines, but sometimes they are just weird in their proposals. To return to the position discussed here:

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I doubt that returning the extra pawn with c2-c3 can be the best continuation. Anderssen would have tried very hard to work out a continuation which keeps the extra pawn. And I guess that most of the members here would do the same. These are the ten best candidate moves, according to Rybka:
0.86 13.c3
0.86 13.Bg2 Bc5 14.c3
0.77 13.a3 Bc5 14.c3
0.76 13.Qe2 b6 14.c3
0.74 13.Bf3 Bc5 14.c3
0.69 13.Qd2 Bc5 14.c3
0.64 13.g4 Bc5 14.Bg2 Rh8 15.c3
0.63 13.Bd2 Bc5 14.Bg2 Kb8 15.g4
0.61 13.a4 Kb8 14.Bf3 a5 15.Nc4 Bc5
Candidate moves 7, 8 and 9 look reasonable to me. What's wrong with me and my chess understanding? Or is Black's pressure on the d-file actually "worth a pawn"?  Huh
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #177 - 09/12/12 at 13:24:43
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Bibs wrote on 09/12/12 at 12:11:17:
I think Vass and Stefan may be losing everybody.
The last two posts didn't make any sense.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/11/12 at 17:40:36:
Bibs wrote on 09/11/12 at 12:04:09:
Plenty of silly analysis here, all tongue in cheek one presumes.

Why retreat the N?
6. Nf6:
7. d3 +-

Elliptical Bibs: #114.
Silicon rules, no poems
or fun in quality chess.

Translation: The stem game of the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit went 6.Nxf6+, it can be found in reply #114. When you actually study the position, your +- is far from truth. I'll comment on 6.Nxf6+ later, but I still believe that 6.Ne3 is at least as good.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #176 - 09/12/12 at 12:11:17
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I think Vass and Stefan may be losing everybody.
The last two posts didn't make any sense.


  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #175 - 09/11/12 at 18:58:17
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I like such topics.. We usually discuss themes like this one trying to "analyse" romantic stuff in a romantic way. In other words, not one of us will play such openings in an important correspondence chess game, for example. But many of us will play, say, the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit in a blitz game, a rapid one...or even some of us (and here I suspect Stefan in the first place  Smiley ) in OTB game on a classical time control.
So, I think we can "analyse" such openings in a romantic style. A style we miss in the today competitive chess. It would be very, very bad for me if I had to run my Houdini's, Critter's, Rybka's, Komodo's and alike engines up to 30 plys depth, comparing their results (or even using the Aquarium Idea for over a week) on a specific position and duly "recite" their results after all. And further...re-working these results putting the human ideas into their pure calculations like I do in my correspondence chess games.. In the end, we'll run the risk to dry out every creative human idea in chess that can come out of us all. And to cite our computer analyses till the end of the day..
No, no - I don't like it this way. At least, it will be counter-productive for topics like this one. Let's speak our chess ideas in a human way! Calculations?! Ok! But who is going to calculate such lines instead of me when OTB?! (Harry) Houdini?!  Grin
Recently I posted a topic about the Ruy Lopez, Bulgarian variation C60 with the original analysis of the late Dr Georgi Popov - one of the all time best Bulgarian correspondence chess players. http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1343208784
While translating from Bulgarian language I checked some of his ideas with an engine. And was amazed by his quality of analysis - not the computer evaluations like 0.86 (so automatically +/-), but the firm human understanding - this position is playable, or black is close to equality. Or white is better...and therefore has better chances (but still not winning 70 %  Wink ). It was full of creative human ideas...and all of this just to defend his occasional slip of the hand while playing 3...a6 in the Ruy Lopez.  Cheesy
"That's it!" (Curt Vonnegut)
... 1.e4 c5 2.a4... Oh no, not again!..  Shocked (Thank you, Stefan!)
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #174 - 09/11/12 at 17:40:36
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Bibs wrote on 09/11/12 at 12:04:09:
Plenty of silly analysis here, all tongue in cheek one presumes.

Why retreat the N?
6. Nf6:
7. d3 +-

Elliptical Bibs: #114.
Silicon rules, no poems
or fun in quality chess.

Vass wrote on 09/11/12 at 10:42:40:
Well, in this line white can probably escape with 11.d4 Qh4+ 12. Kf1 O-O-O 13. d5 Bc5 14. Qe1 Qxf4
15. dxc6
bxc6 16. Qc3 Ne5 17. Nd5 Qh4 18. Qxc5 cxd5 19. Qf2

And the play becomes computer'ish..  Cheesy
But, that's not the point... Yes, only humans play such moves as 8.f4... This can give them a perfect practical game with fair chances. While comps can only calculate!  Grin


White escapes. And Black escapes, too! 15...Ne5! 16.Nd5 Qh4 =.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #173 - 09/11/12 at 12:04:09
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Plenty of silly analysis here, all tongue in cheek one presumes.

Why retreat the N?
6. Nf6:
7. d3 +-

Vass wrote on 09/11/12 at 10:42:40:
Well, in this line white can probably escape with 11.d4:



And the play becomes computer'ish..  Cheesy
But, that's not the point... Yes, only humans play such moves as 8.f4... This can give them a perfect practical game with fair chances. While comps can only calculate!  Grin

  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #172 - 09/11/12 at 10:42:40
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Well, in this line white can probably escape with 11.d4:



And the play becomes computer'ish..  Cheesy
But, that's not the point... Yes, only humans play such moves as 8.f4... This can give them a perfect practical game with fair chances. While comps can only calculate!  Grin
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #171 - 09/11/12 at 09:44:20
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In a "Monte Carlo" test, indeed White comes ahead with about 70%. But earlier in this thread we have already seen that this kind of test fails when the defender has to play carefully. The 70% could be realistic for players below 1500, but around 1800-2000 I'd already expect a 60%, and even less (maybe 55%) in upper Elo regions.

Rybka may be an extreme case, but I'd think that many programs would overestimate White's chances: the bishop pair alone translates to +0.30, - maybe more, if the software sees that White can even take the remaining black bishop with his knight. Plus the doubled pawn, plus three pawn islands vs two. An end result of +1.14 may be almost meaningless, if the software is dumb enough not to consider other rules: bishops are worse in exploiting such pawn weaknesses, a doubled pawn in the center safely protected by Black's pieces is almost a bonus for the party with the knights. And so on. The main point in my last post was that the ideas of the Bulgarian Ouch or the Fyfe are difficult to understand for the engines. 

Vass wrote on 09/10/12 at 16:55:53:
Well, Stefan, I don't believe that white is almost +\- in the final position. My assessment is +\=. I think your human understanding is right. Yes, white has the two bishops, more space (after a2-a4, b2-b4) and so on, but if you continue to play further you'll see that little by little the engine evaluation goes down a bit.
Anyway, this variation is another example for the engines' wrong assessment in the openings. I would like to point at the move 8.f4!? here. Perfectly playable in my opinion and yet not an engine will show it as its first option. And only if you insist on it and give it to the engine to calculate your idea behind it, then suddenly...as if darkness comes to light..it says: "A-ha, so.. This line...you meant!.."  Shocked
What to say?!.. Calculators!   Roll Eyes

Yes, your proposal 8.f4 is truly human. Only humans play so actively when the opponent has the better development.  Wink I had looked at a similar idea, where Black has played Qd7 instead of h5-h4. So with the pawn still on h5 and the queen already on d7, the move f2-f4 seemed too risky. Maybe the aggressive advance is playable in the present situation?

One of your lines goes: 8. f4 exf4 9. gxf4 h3 10. Bf3 Nh7 11. Qe2 Qh4 12.  Qf2 Qxf4 13.  Nd5 Qe5 14.  Ne2 Bxd5 15.  exd5 Nb4 16.  Bf4. However, instead of 10...Nh7, Black has the stronger 10...Nd7! 11.f5 Nde5 12.fxe6 fxe6!.

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Who stands better? I'd estimate that in a poll 70% will favour Black. [Note that 11.Qe2 Qh4+ 12.Qf2 Qxf4 13.Nd5 Qe5 14.Ne2, in analogy to Vass' analysis, runs into 14...Bc5!.]   Smiley

  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #170 - 09/10/12 at 17:48:29
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I would think that even scoring 70% (never mind winning 70%) could be considered in line with an assessment of ± ...
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #169 - 09/10/12 at 17:08:19
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/10/12 at 16:51:28:
And if 1...Nxe4 2.Bxe6+ Kb8 3.Bf5! If 1...Kd7? 2.Ke2! wins.

So, yeah. A human can work that out, and yeah, white is very close to winning.

No, not 1...Nxe4?  I won't make this move unless under the gun..
Simply, 1...Nd8 and a little "holding tight" in a stubborn defence.  Wink
Edit: Of course, white is better.. And can win, say 7 out of 10 games from this position.. But, +/-, no...it's not!
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #168 - 09/10/12 at 16:55:53
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Well, Stefan, I don't believe that white is almost +\- in the final position. My assessment is +\=. I think your human understanding is right. Yes, white has the two bishops, more space (after a2-a4, b2-b4) and so on, but if you continue to play further you'll see that little by little the engine evaluation goes down a bit.
Anyway, this variation is another example for the engines' wrong assessment in the openings. I would like to point at the move 8.f4!? here. Perfectly playable in my opinion and yet not an engine will show it as its first option. And only if you insist on it and give it to the engine to calculate your idea behind it, then suddenly...as if darkness comes to light..it says: "A-ha, so.. This line...you meant!.."  Shocked
What to say?!.. Calculators!   Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: 09/10/12 at 18:37:39 by Vass »  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #167 - 09/10/12 at 16:51:28
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/10/12 at 14:18:54:
In reply #113, I expressed doubts regarding the correctness of the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5.

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So White has returned the pawn, but what exactly is the point? Rybka famously overestimates the bishop pair, and in the ending it isn't the best software either. But still I find the assessment +1.14 a bit strange. Sure, White has an edge in the ending. However, would anybody here think that White has a clear advantage, as in +/-?


In the diagrammed position, White simply wins a pawn: 1.Bh3! And if 1...Nxe4 2.Bxe6+ Kb8 3.Bf5! If 1...Kd7? 2.Ke2! wins.

So, yeah. A human can work that out, and yeah, white is very close to winning.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #166 - 09/10/12 at 16:43:52
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After just a few seconds' thought, without any engine, I would definitely prefer to play white.

White has a solid pawn structure and targets to aim for. After Ke2, White will slowly unravel his pieces and be able to take advantage either on the d-file or the h-file. From a purely human perspective, Black has too many weaknesses to survive in the long run.

I bet that after you plug in a few moves, White's advantage will grow!

Again, it was just a cursory evaluation. I'll do the hard work of really concrete variations some other time.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #165 - 09/10/12 at 14:18:54
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In reply #113, I expressed doubts regarding the correctness of the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5.

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I wrote: "The problem is 4.Nxd5 Nf6 5.Bg2! Be6 6.Ne3 (while the retreat Ne6 is not so easy in the Fyfe)." However, there is still the unsolved question where White's king will find a secure place. Moreover, it is funny to see how clueless the chess software (at least Rybka4) is in such a position, where humans at least get the basics: White will have to defend for a while, but should be able to convert the pawn if he is careful.

I'll give a short example to show what I mean. Let's say, Black continues with the natural 6...h5, to discourage White from castling short. White could play 7.d3 (the computer loves the risky move 7.Nf3, preventing h5-h4, but after 7...Nxe4 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Bxe4 Bc5 Black has full compensation for the pawn) 7...h4 8.Nf3 hxg3 9.hxg3 Rxh1+ 10.Bxh1 Qd7. The computer now goes for the bishop pair: 11.Ng5 0-0-0 12.Nxe6 fxe6. What follows is even harder to understand for this human: 13.Bg2 Bc5 14.c3?!! Qxd3 15.Qxd3 Rxd3.

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So White has returned the pawn, but what exactly is the point? Rybka famously overestimates the bishop pair, and in the ending it isn't the best software either. But still I find the assessment +1.14 a bit strange. Sure, White has an edge in the ending. However, would anybody here think that White has a clear advantage, as in +/-?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #164 - 08/29/12 at 22:13:38
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Even if the German Ouch Gambit were entirely correct (which isn't probable), after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 the traditional main line 4.Qg4 will remain unchallenged, since the latter move gives White a plus. Studying related lines is often useful, but in this case 4.d4 does not lead to many new insights.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #163 - 08/27/12 at 11:01:26
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #162 - 08/27/12 at 09:53:13
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SWJediknight wrote on 07/27/12 at 11:03:00:
The Max Lange Gambit runs 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4!? Bxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4, when 7.f4 and 7.Bg5 are both playable.

I can see a lot of similarity with these 4...d6 lines but I think the analogous lines of the Fyfe Gambit must be an improved version for Black.  In particular, in the Max Lange version 5...Nxd4 (instead of 5...Bxd4) can be met more effectively with 6.Nxe5.  Also, in the Fyfe version the fact that White has played Nc3 rather than Nf3 makes a ...Bg4 pin (in response to Nf3) more awkward for White to deal with.  Plus Black's king's bishop is probably better placed on e7 than on c5, taking the sting out of any Bg5 and Nc3-d5 ideas.

When Lev Gutman wrote his detailed article on the Max Lange Gambit (40 pp. in Kaissiber #23), I discussed many lines with him. One motif came up again and again: how can White achieve a position with opposite-side castling, and which attack comes first? For example, in one line White executes the maneuvre Qd1-d2-e3!, attacking the pawn a7, to make it more difficult for Black to castle. - SWJedi mentions the fact that in the Fyfe Gambit the pin of Nf6 appears less effective. But while it is true that White tries to profit from the weak square f5 in the Max Lange Gambit, when Black has a doubled f-pawn (f7, f6, e5), the open g-file here is usually Black's best weapon, if Black has castled long and White short.

The main difference in the Fyfe Gambit, in my opinion, is the exchange Bxc3+, ruining White's pawn structur, something which doesn't happen in the Max Lange Gambit. If Black can manage to castle long, White's chances to succeed are small.   
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #161 - 08/25/12 at 09:53:08
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In the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 4.Nxd5, the attempt 4...f5, in analogy to the traditional treatment of the Fyfe Gambit, seems too risky. It was already said above that after 5.d3 I clearly prefer White. This continuation is so natural and obvious that it hardly deserves an explanation. But is 5.Bb5 objectively bad?

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This idea was logical and strong in the Fyfe Gambit, but here it "simply feels wrong": the useful g2-g3 suddenly becomes a waste of time or even a weakness, as the white bishop goes astray. Our chess instincts revolt against 5.Bb5, and they'd be basically right: 5.d3 is better than 5.Bb5. Still, it's worth to mention that unusual structures (the "empty" fianchetto) can inspire new ideas. Looking at the Fyfe, with BLack's pawn on g7, I'd hardly find g7-g5!?!, while here in the Bulgarian Ouch, 5.Bb5 Nf6 6.Bxc6+ bxc6 7.Nxf6+ Qxf6 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qf3 Bc5!, suddenly the move 10.g3-g4!? looks like a good idea, with rough equality.

When it is so obvious to everybody that an "empty fianchetto" can be a handicap, it will always remain a mystery to me why, in 227 games in the databases starting 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 g6, nobody dares to play 4.b4!?.

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #160 - 08/25/12 at 02:21:44
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kylemeister wrote on 08/20/12 at 21:46:08:
Markovich wrote on 08/20/12 at 20:22:01:
Odd, since the position in the first case would seem to call for 4.Nxe5.


Indeed, and that has been given by various sources down through time as leading to ±, though some GMs have played 3...Bc5.

Apparently 365chess.com includes games by players rated under 1000.


Yes, that's how they get up to 1.4 million games based on public sources alone. As I recently discovered in my work on a chess website I'm developing, if you rely on public sources and limit your intake to games where both players are rated at least 2000, you wind up with about 1.2 million games. Frankly I have my doubts about the value of data sets with significantly more games than that.
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #159 - 08/24/12 at 13:54:18
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German Ouch Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Nxd4! 5.Nf3. Here 5.f4 (in analogy to the Fyfe Gambit) is not possible because of 5...d5, à la Markovich. The additional move Bc5 is killing White, while Bc4 isn't very useful. 5...d6 Since 6.Na4 does not work (see my last post), White must probably try 6.Bg5!?. 

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6...Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qxg5 8.Qxf7+ Kd8 9.Qf8+ Kd7 10.Bxg8 Qf6 leads to an ending which is only slightly better for Black. More critical is 6...Nf6 7.Nd5, for example 7...Bg4 8. Bh4 c6 9.Nxf6+ gxf6 10.c3 Nxf3+ 11.gxf3 Bh5, when Black seems to have difficulties to achieve d6-d5, so the value of his extra pawn may be debated. This is not an exhaustive analysis, but at least the basic "logic" behind White's idea remains intact: the minus pawn is a risk, but White claims the better chances in the middle game, when his own king should be more secure than his opponent's.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #158 - 08/23/12 at 20:36:47
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@Bibs
Who knows?!  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #157 - 08/23/12 at 13:00:33
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Vass wrote on 08/17/12 at 07:07:27:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/16/12 at 23:12:47:
In the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit, after the moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 Nd4, obviously 5.Nf3 Nf6 transposes to the gambit from the last posting. Black has more problems to equalize against 5.Bg2 Nf6 .... 

Here I post the only game I've found in the Opening Master database. It continued (after some moves transposition) 6.d3 Bb4 instead of 5.h3 Bb4. So I doubt this game will be of use for your researches. After all, it seems to be a fast 'simul' game or so..  Roll Eyes



Edit: By the way, I think the first player here in this game is the chess author, Bill Wall who wrote at least 29 books. Some of them are:
Grob's Attack
Larsen's Opening
Orangutan - 1.b4
Owen's Defense
500 Queen's Gambit Miniatures
500 Ruy Lopez Miniatures
Five Hundred Sicilian Defense Miniatures
500 Sicilian Miniatures, Collection II
500 Queen's Gambit: Miniatures
500 Queen's Gambit: Miniatures, Collection II
500 Scotch Miniatures
500 Indian Miniatures
Five Hundred Pirc Miniatures
700 Opening Traps
...
Wink


Well, his name was on the front. Did he actually 'write' anything. or were these just collections of games?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #156 - 08/23/12 at 11:44:40
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A critical line in the German Ouch appears to be 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Nxd4! 5.Nf3 d6 6.Na4 Be6 7.Nxc5 Bxc4 8.Nxb7 Qc8 9.Nxd4 Qxb7 10.f3 exd4! 11.Qxd4 Ba6 12.Qxg7 Qb5 13.Kf2. Or 13.c4 Qe5. 13...Qe5 14.Qxe5 dxe5. According to the PC, -0.35. Maybe White can hold the draw, maybe not. 

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #155 - 08/20/12 at 21:46:08
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Markovich wrote on 08/20/12 at 20:22:01:
Odd, since the position in the first case would seem to call for 4.Nxe5.


Indeed, and that has been given by various sources down through time as leading to ±, though some GMs have played 3...Bc5.

Apparently 365chess.com includes games by players rated under 1000.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #154 - 08/20/12 at 20:22:01
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SWJediknight wrote on 08/17/12 at 11:38:13:
Strangely, I can find examples of 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bc5 4.d4,
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=8&n=16174&ms=e4.e5.Nc3.Nc6.Nf3.Bc5.d4&ns=3...
but not 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4.

Black has quite a hefty plus score in that first variation, which doesn't bode well for the second one!


Odd, since the position in the first case would seem to call for 4.Nxe5.
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #153 - 08/20/12 at 09:37:15
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[Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/17/12 at 19:36:38:
Thanks! You never know, a correspondence player might be able to work it out...

But no one dared...till now!  Wink
So we have a new gambit! Yes!
You know, German Ouch Gambit is a nice name.  Cool
The sad (but maybe the good) thing about it is that you'll have to dig it from a scratch.  Cheesy
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #152 - 08/17/12 at 19:36:38
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Vass wrote on 08/17/12 at 12:50:03:
When I come home I'll check my countless correspondence chess databases... I also have many databases with engine played games on various time controls. But, no matter what, I highly doubt that even the weakest chess playing engine would play 4.d4 in such position. They all overestimate the material.  Wink

Thanks! You never know, a correspondence player might be able to work it out...
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #151 - 08/17/12 at 12:50:03
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/17/12 at 11:06:14:
... Can you please check whether the move 4.d4 is new? I am tempted to call it the German Ouch Gambit, since it is long overdue that some system be named after my country.

As long as I know...it's all yours!  Cool
I've checked several databases including the Opening Master one. Not a trace about 4.d4 (handslip)  Grin
When I come home I'll check my countless correspondence chess databases... I also have many databases with engine played games on various time controls. But, no matter what, I highly doubt that even the weakest chess playing engine would play 4.d4 in such position. They all overestimate the material.  Wink
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #150 - 08/17/12 at 11:38:13
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Strangely, I can find examples of 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bc5 4.d4,
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=8&n=16174&ms=e4.e5.Nc3.Nc6.Nf3.Bc5.d4&ns=3...
but not 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4.

Black has quite a hefty plus score in that first variation, which doesn't bode well for the second one!
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #149 - 08/17/12 at 11:06:14
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You are very resourceful, Vass - many thanks for the help. May I test your vast resources once again? Searching for examples starting 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4!?, strangely I cannot find any.

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That's particularly surprising, as the square d4 is attacked by three black pieces, so every problemist will instantly recognize that the square d4 must play a special role in the solution.

Can you please check whether the move 4.d4 is new? I am tempted to call it the German Ouch Gambit, since it is long overdue that some system be named after my country.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #148 - 08/17/12 at 07:07:27
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/16/12 at 23:12:47:
In the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit, after the moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 Nd4, obviously 5.Nf3 Nf6 transposes to the gambit from the last posting. Black has more problems to equalize against 5.Bg2 Nf6 .... 

Here I post the only game I've found in the Opening Master database. It continued (after some moves transposition) 6.d3 Bb4 instead of 5.h3 Bb4. So I doubt this game will be of use for your researches. After all, it seems to be a fast 'simul' game or so..  Roll Eyes



Edit: By the way, I think the first player here in this game is the chess author, Bill Wall who wrote at least 29 books. Some of them are:
Grob's Attack
Larsen's Opening
Orangutan - 1.b4
Owen's Defense
500 Queen's Gambit Miniatures
500 Ruy Lopez Miniatures
Five Hundred Sicilian Defense Miniatures
500 Sicilian Miniatures, Collection II
500 Queen's Gambit: Miniatures
500 Queen's Gambit: Miniatures, Collection II
500 Scotch Miniatures
500 Indian Miniatures
Five Hundred Pirc Miniatures
700 Opening Traps
...
Wink
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #147 - 08/16/12 at 23:12:47
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In the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit, after the moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 Nd4, obviously 5.Nf3 Nf6 transposes to the gambit from the last posting. Black has more problems to equalize against 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.h3 Bb4. 

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A plausible continuation: 7.a3 Ba5 8.b4. Or 8.Nf3 Bf5. 8...Bb6 9.Nf3 a5 10.Bb2. 10.bxa5 Rxa5 isn't better. 10...axb4 11.axb4 Rxa1 12.Bxa1 0-0 13.0-0 Qd6 14.Re1. Or maybe 14.Na4 Ba7 15.c4 Qxb4. 14...Bf5 15.d3 Qxb4 16.Nxe5 Re8. White has a slight advantage. However, this line isn't really forced, and Black keeps a lot of activity, so we cannot exclude that Black might equalize with accurate play. - As we have seen in the last post, the extra move g7-g6 doesn't help Black much in the Belgrade Gambit. The Bulgarian Ouch Gambit is the Fyfe Gambit with a free move g7-g6 for the defender. Under these circumstances White seems to profit a bit more from the extra move (more than in the Belgrade). This short look may suffice for the moment. Still, 4.Nxd5 must be the critical move.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #146 - 08/13/12 at 14:55:01
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brabo wrote on 08/13/12 at 08:44:04:
Personally i find it silly that such kind of (beginner) games come into a database.

Yeah, I should stop joking about U10 games. Considering my own earliest games, I am sitting in a glasshouse. - Why am I showing these d5 attempts at all? Mainly to demonstrate that the sacrifice of the d-pawn rarely works against fast, natural development. On the other side, the above mentioned Bulgarian Ouch Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 is a more reasonable idea, because White's weakening move 3.g3 may be sufficient motivation for the reply 3...d5.

Kaissiber 16, p. 4 (2001), published a letter by Wolfgang Labahn who sent the game Labahn - Th. Avant with his comments: 1. e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 (a move often used by Igor Glek) 4...d5!? 5.exd5 Nd4!?.

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Labahn won the game, but liked the bold sacrifice and suggested refinements of Black's play. I added some analysis, but wasn't able to refute it either. 4...d5! seemed to be healthy. As far as I remember, a few years later Igor Glek published an article, discussing Nd4! in detail, but without crediting it to Th. Avant or Kaissiber. He also didn't find a refutation of 4...d5.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #145 - 08/13/12 at 08:44:04
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/12 at 17:17:18:
But what kind of advice can the trainer of the boy in the Belgian U10 championship 2004 give? After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 d5 there followed 4.Ng5?? (diagram) and after 4...dxc4 Black won easily.

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(57 games in the database with 3...d5, White scores 89%. The game with 4.Ng5 is the only case where White doesn't take on d5.)

The number of participants below 10 years old is so low in a Belgium championship that organisers even permit complete beginners to participate. So the mistake in the game has nothing to do with advise of a trainer as I am pretty sure, knowing the Belgium scene quite well that he didn't have one. The boy of 7 years old was a complete beginner, played still many irregular moves and of course hung pieces everywhere. His performance in the tournament was 984. He hasn't played a game since 2007 anymore so most likely chess wasn't his cup of tea.

Personally i find it silly that such kind of (beginner) games come into a database.
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #144 - 08/12/12 at 17:17:18
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TN wrote on 08/12/12 at 09:37:22:
Then 4.Bb5 reaches the Scotch Four Knights with 4...Bb4...with reversed colours and without ...Nf6 for Black.

Smiley Yes, that's a possibility. I guess there are indeed trainers who advice their pupils never to be greedy, never try to win a center pawn for nothing, because it always must be a trap. When it comes to openings, pupils are often taught the ever-same set of oldies, like 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nd4!?, and the trainers hope that the pupils understand the lesson: don't be greedy, check carefully before you take a pawn. But there are always pupils who don't understand. For example, in the last diagram three of the ten games continued with 4.h3, 4.d3 and one saw 4.d4?!. In seven games White took the pawn, scoring nicely (71%). The three who declined the pawn were probably lauded by their trainers afterwards that they have resisted such a strong temptation to be greedy.

But what kind of advice can the trainer of the boy in the Belgian U10 championship 2004 give? After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 d5 there followed 4.Ng5?? (diagram) and after 4...dxc4 Black won easily.

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(57 games in the database with 3...d5, White scores 89%. The game with 4.Ng5 is the only case where White doesn't take on d5.)
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #143 - 08/12/12 at 09:37:22
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Then 4.Bb5 reaches the Scotch Four Knights with 4...Bb4...with reversed colours and without ...Nf6 for Black.
  

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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #142 - 08/12/12 at 08:26:27
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Off-topic, but I don't want to start a new thread. In the databases I find ten games illustrating the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 d5. Even riskier than the Bulgarian Ouch Gambit, in my opinion. The result was 6-4 for White. For these rare experiments, often played by 8- or 10-year-olds, I am much indebted to the tireless ChessBase staff. It is extremely important, I think, that 8-year-olds can find the games of their opponents in the databases, so that they can prepare, guided by their trainers, for nasty surprises like this:

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #141 - 08/11/12 at 23:10:35
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In reply #137 I proposed three variations against the strong defence 7....Qh4+ 8.g3 Qe7. Now I believe that only the second gives White good play for the pawn. Thus the following might be seen as the main line of the Fyfe Gambit:

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 Bb4 5. Nf3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qh4+ 8. g3 Qe7 9. fxe5!

At first 9.Bd3 d6 10.0-0 Nf6 11.f5 seemed to be playable, but 11...h6 followed by moves like b6, Nd7, Bb7, Nc5 is practically hopeless for White. 

9...Qxe5 10. Bf4 Qc5 11.Qd3 Ne7 12.Qd4 Qxd4 13.cxd4 d5 14.Bxc7 dxe4 15.c4.

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White's active pieces offer sufficient compensation for the pawn. In some situations White can create a useful passed pawn with Rb1 (b6) c4-c5. In "Monte Carlo" tests (with 10,000 fast games played by the engine against itself) White scored about 50% in most lines. Black held a significant edge (around 57%) only with 15...Bg4, when the PC failed to find the active 16.h3! Bf3 17.Rh2 Nf5 18.d5 (or maybe 18.Rb1). In these endings White has nothing to fear. A draw is the most probable result.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #140 - 08/09/12 at 10:35:03
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In my last post, 12...0-0-0! is actually good for Black (=+ at least).

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/17/12 at 10:46:57:
Nothing in earlier editions, but the 7th edition of MCO (1946) says (p. 377): "3.d4 (Fyfe Gambit) Nxd4 4.f4 Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+." Their final assessment translates to "Black has a distinct advantage, but no forced win."

Correction: Now I see the same line in the 6th edition of MCO (1939), 5th edition (1932) and 4th edition (1925). How blind can you be? - It is not in the 2nd edition (1913), really. Can't find the third, only marginally improved edition (1916). - Worth noting is that Reuben Fine, editor of the 6th edition of MCO, let the Fyfe entry stand. But after a quarrel with the MCO publisher he wrote his Practical Chess Openings (1948), and now he ignored the Fyfe. It seems that 3.d4 didn't qualify as a "practical" opening. 

Embarrassed
  
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