Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black (Read 38961 times)
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2073
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #31 - 08/13/12 at 09:59:09
Post Tools
Yes, there's a big difference between the commitment to an early Bb7 being ideal in a position where white hasn't yet played h3 and it turning a roughly equal position into a terrible one. We're only talking about half a tempo extra for white, and that in a relatively slow position.

Incidentally, is that Bc5 line from Kasparov - Kramnik really do bad? Its very much - two bishops for an extra doubled B pawn - the sort of thing that black seems to be doing nowadays and it does seem a priori at least semi plausible to recapture on a8 with the Q instead of the bishop to dodge the ending, not that that's so terrible.
(I'd post the moves but not to hand and can't be at all sure of remembering them right Smiley)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 256
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #30 - 08/12/12 at 12:11:42
Post Tools
TN wrote on 08/11/12 at 15:52:23:
I haven't checked the analysis but in PANFR's post above, I'd always thought 11...Nd4 was the critical move, and that 12.Bd2 was the best response, leading to positions somewhere between += and =.

That was my impression as well, but the plan with ...Nxe5 and ...Qd6 seems to be very good for Black, and is scoring extremely well. Svidler failed to get any advantage with it against Anna Muzychuk recently, Kamsky held it's own quite easily against Gashimov, Yu Yangyi tried too hard and lost against Tomashevsky, and generally in the 2500+ league Black is scoring a stunning 75% in my database (admittedly, the games are not many).
Larry Kaufmann also seems to have faith in Black's position, which means that engines approve Black's concept...  Tongue
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 964
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #29 - 08/12/12 at 11:15:11
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 08/11/12 at 10:13:25:
My impression is the same. The ...d5 sac must be the way forward for Black.

In the Arch-Bd6 line i just share with you something interesting:

7. d3 Bd6 and now 8. Bg5!? h6
(8... Na5 is met strongly by 9. d4!)
9. Bh4 Ne7
(9... O-O 10. a4!? and if 10... Re8 11. axb5 axb5 12.  Rxa8 Bxa8 13. Nc3 with a rather big edge)
10. Bxf6 gxf6  and Black is in bad shape as was shown in a recent game from the Greek league Iskos- Tcihlis, Rion 2012.

Sorry, but i cannot trust this line for Black. Let me remind you that  a few years back the d3 lines in the Ruy Lopez in general were considered harmless and now see the boost of popularity the 6.d3 (no Re1) line against the main line Ruy Lopez enjoys for the White side! d3 lines are still harmless in theory, but their reputation as great practical devices has raised a lot between GMs. So, if the d3 line in the Arch was considere quite critical years ago, nowdays that we know that the d3 lines are better than we thought they were, it is logical to think that this aproach gains power against the Arch also. If the d3 Arch was so harmless, everybody would play Bb7 in the 6.d3 line which was so popular in 2011 and the start of 2012 (now i think that the correct solutions for Black have been found).


I value your opinion and even share your “mistrust” (I always like best to play White in these positions) but I prefer the process of analysis and assessment to try to reach the truth, rather than the “a priori” type of argument. Besides, there are some logical flaws:
A) generalising from a single poor example: Black’s play in the game Iskos-Tsichlis was simply very bad, and the search for improvements can start on move 8.
B)  the “straw man” - no-one, least of all me,  is arguing that the 7 d3 line against the Arkhangelsk is harmless; as I tried to explain in my previous post, I find it to be a very logical response to an early ...Bb7 and it must be treated very seriously by Black;
C) even if ...Bb7 in the 4.0-0 Nf6 5 0-0 Be7 6.d3 line is sub-optimal, that does not mean that it must be bad, and (therefore) that the Arkhangelsk is also bad. (“The best is the enemy of the good.”)

Finally I would say that any general line of argument based on “authority”, such as “Nobody plays this, so it must be bad” is not only a lazy one, but one that discourages creativity and hinders the progress of theory. Theory develops PRECISELY because someone at some time  is stubborn enough to try to make a line work, even though both theory and practice currently disapprove of it (see Kasparov’s book “Revolution in the 70s”  for many examples of this - and a certain recent book on the QGD Tarrasch also springs to mind  Smiley ).

I am encouraged by the fact that several strong players have played  the Arkhangelsk in 2011-12, and some of these have answered 7 d3 with 7..Bd6 (e.g. M.Bartel (around 2650) has played it three times). I found 24 games with 7...Bd6 in 2011-12, with White scoring only the normal 54%. However I regard this is “secondary” evidence, merely indicative that it is worth “digging” in this field.

I think that 8 Bg5 is unlikely to pose a serious theoretical challenge. I am rather more concerned about 8 a4 and 8 a3. In such positions the pin on the king's knight tends to be ineffective, since a) Black can simply unpin with ...Be7, leaving the white bishop rather misplaced on g5, with nothing to do except retreat or exchange itself for the knight - the latter is rarely useful to White, since d5 is not a real hole (...c6 is still available). By the way, leaving open this ...Be7 retreat by delaying ...d6 is the key idea of the move-order for Black against the Italian Game recommended in the recent book "The Open Games for Black" by Lysyj and Ovetchkin.
b) Black has not castled, so can consider (after ...h6) playing ...g5, as pointed out by Steinitz some time ago...  Wink

I offer an updated the pgn file with some tentative analysis. I don’t think we are at all close to the truth yet.

  

Arkhangelsk7d3Bd6_02.pgn ( 6 KB | Downloads )
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #28 - 08/11/12 at 17:14:51
Post Tools
Thanks for replying, Paddy & Nikos. Yes, it appears the rare but nasty 8.Bg5 is good for White. Maybe
7...h6 ... ? LOL.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #27 - 08/11/12 at 15:52:23
Post Tools
I haven't checked the analysis but in PANFR's post above, I'd always thought 11...Nd4 was the critical move, and that 12.Bd2 was the best response, leading to positions somewhere between += and =.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #26 - 08/11/12 at 15:45:32
Post Tools
What an interesting discussion.

After 7...Bd6, the move 8.a4 scores very well, 64.8 percent, in 125 games in my data base.  So this would seem to be a critical reaction.

Edit: E.g, 8...0-0 9.axb5 axb5 10.Rxa8 Qxa8 11.Bg5 Be7 12.Nc3 looks troublesome.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #25 - 08/11/12 at 10:13:25
Post Tools
My impression is the same. The ...d5 sac must be the way forward for Black.

In the Arch-Bd6 line i just share with you something interesting:

7. d3 Bd6 and now 8. Bg5!? h6
(8... Na5 is met strongly by 9. d4!)
9. Bh4 Ne7
(9... O-O 10. a4!? and if 10... Re8 11. axb5 axb5 12.  Rxa8 Bxa8 13. Nc3 with a rather big edge)
10. Bxf6 gxf6  and Black is in bad shape as was shown in a recent game from the Greek league Iskos- Tcihlis, Rion 2012.

Sorry, but i cannot trust this line for Black. Let me remind you that  a few years back the d3 lines in the Ruy Lopez in general were considered harmless and now see the boost of popularity the 6.d3 (no Re1) line against the main line Ruy Lopez enjoys for the White side! d3 lines are still harmless in theory, but their reputation as great practical devices has raised a lot between GMs. So, if the d3 line in the Arch was considere quite critical years ago, nowdays that we know that the d3 lines are better than we thought they were, it is logical to think that this aproach gains power against the Arch also. If the d3 Arch was so harmless, everybody would play Bb7 in the 6.d3 line which was so popular in 2011 and the start of 2012 (now i think that the correct solutions for Black have been found).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 256
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #24 - 08/11/12 at 08:15:42
Post Tools
My impression is that Black is quite comfortable in the h3 Anti- Marshall.
Heres is sample analysis (not a complete work) but I believe it shows that Black's initiative is quite dangerous.
« Last Edit: 08/11/12 at 09:39:06 by PANFR »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chessguy
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 86
Joined: 07/20/07
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #23 - 08/10/12 at 11:08:37
Post Tools
In your line 9..Nd4 Paddy the engines recommend 12 Ng3 instead of 12 f4! due to ..c4 being good against f4 it seems? After the normal 9..h6 instead in your main line the engine suggests 10 Be3.  After 9.. h6 10 h3 the engine this time suggests 10.. Nd4! being good/ok for black.
Interesting line this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 964
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #22 - 08/09/12 at 14:49:27
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 08/09/12 at 14:28:05:
I'm going to edit somewhat the Bologan lines (copyright issues) and paste them here.

I have no such qualms.
Arkhangelsk Defence with 7 d3

There is an argument that 7 d3 is particularly justified here, since by playing his bishop so early to b7 Black has shown his hand, granting White certain privileges:
a)      White will not have to play h3 in the near future to prevent a ...Bg4 pin, so will be a tempo up compared, for example, with the 8 h3 Anti-Marshall.
b)      Black will be unable, except at considerable cost in time, to oppose White’s bishop with ...Be6, if White decides to keep it operating on the “Italian” diagonal a2-g8.
c)      White can devote resources towards making it very difficult for Black to play ...d5, thus the Arkhangelsk bishop on b7 might find it hard to develop any activity;
d)      by keeping his bishop on the a2-g8 diagonal, White retains pressure on f7, which means that in some lines Black might have to spend a move on playing ...h6 to prevent Ng5;
e)      f5 is an even more than usually inviting square for a white knight, in the absence of Black’s bishop from the c8-h3 diagonal, and especially if Black has played ...h6, making it difficult or impossible for Black to contest the f5-square with ...g6.

What counter-arguments can Black summon in reply? Very few, but they do have some power.

a)      7 d3 is a quiet move that puts no immediate pressure on Black’s centre (e5), so Black has a breathing space to organize his position.
b)      thus far Black has been playing soundly, in accordance with the approved opening principles; his only “sin” is the peccadillo of having committed his bishop to b7 rather early.
c)      in compensation, he has not yet committed his queen’s pawn or his king’s bishop, which has a choice of four squares.

So much for the theoretical background. Let’s try to be a bit more specific and examine Black’s three main options.

7...Bc5 develops the bishop to an aggressive diagonal; if White wants to swat it away with c3, d4, this will now cost him a tempo. However, the move scores quite badly for Black (White scores 64% from 435 games in Megabase) and it seems that most strong Arkhangelsk supporters have been avoiding this move since the debacle of Carlsen-Beliavsky, 2006. It is very easy for the two black bishops to be left merely spectating on the queenside, while White is hacking away on the kingside. There is one Marshall-like forcing line which was tried (by transposition) in the Kasparov-Kramnik match in 2000; it leads to an ending of R+6P vs. B+B+4P which Kramnil drew as Black, but it is difficult to be enthusiastic about such a line. Kramnik annotated the game extensively in Informant 80.

7...Be7 has, in recent years, been the main choice of  strong Arkhangelsk supporters and is covered, albeit not very rigorously in my view, on Mikhalchisin’s DVD. Most of his pupils now play this and I note that it is the regular choice of Pogonina, who has been playing the Arkhangelsk a lot since she switched to 1...e5 from the Dragon. 7...Be7 intuitively feels the most sound and reliable response to 7 d3. However, in addition to transpositions to various Anti-Marshalls, Black must be prepared for several different approaches from White’s flexible position: c3 or a3 or a4 or c4; Nc3 or Nbd2. White is able to retain this flexibility for as long as Black is not threatening ...Na5. In Megabase White scores 57% from 721 games after 7...Be7 (not including later transpositions).

7...Bd6 is in some ways the most fascinating option. White scores 54% from 226 games. Black develops a piece (albeit to a square from which it will almost certainly have to move again), prepares castling, and by defending the e5-pawn immediately threatens ...Na5, bagging the bishop pair, thus almost forcing White to decide right away between a3, a4, c3 (or even c4). The bishop can later move “out” from d6 to c5 or b4, or “in” to e7 (to break any Bg5-pin) or, more likely, to f8, after ...Re8. This line has been played by Mikhalchisin’s former pupil Mateusz Bartel (on the occasions when he has not felt like relying on his usual French). Bartel wrote of 7 d3: “This is surely not the most critical answer.”

N.B. Obviously if Black retreats the bishop from d6 to f8 in the near future, then transposition to some 7...Be7 line or Anti-Marshall is quite likely.

I don’t find Bologan’s analysis very convincing against 7...Bd6. He gives.1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bb7 7. d3 Bd6 8. a3 O-O 9. Nc3 and now he considers only 9... Ne7 and 9...h6, but 9...Nd4 (as suggested by Houdini) looks interesting and might be playable.
After 9...h6 Bologan suggests 10. h3 Re8 11. Be3 Bf8 12. Re1 d6 13. Nd5 as better for White, but to me this looks like a perfectly playable (if not very exciting) position for Black.  Bologan then considers 13...Nd7 but this is surely not the only move. I suggest that 13... Na5 14. Ba2 c5 deserves consideration.

Brief PGN attached. Comments welcome, of course.

Caveats: I have not been able to refer to Mikhalchisin’s original DVD devoted to the Arkhangelsk nor to the relevant volume in Khalifman’s OFWATA series.
« Last Edit: 08/10/12 at 11:35:00 by Paddy »  

Arkhangelsk7d3_Bd6.pgn ( 1 KB | Downloads )
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #21 - 08/09/12 at 14:28:05
Post Tools
I'm going to edit somewhat the Bologan lines (copyright issues) and paste them here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #20 - 08/09/12 at 01:54:21
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 08/01/12 at 13:08:52:
No, i disagree. It is quite "lethal" if you compare the h3-Anti Marshall (where Black has to play well to equalise and even if he does White has a quite pleasant position as was shown by Bologan in his Ruy Lopez DVD Vol 2) with this line, you'll see that this tempo is very important (the not-h3 move). Also, the Bd6 variation is well known, but it doesn't equalise as shown again by Bologan in his DVD. Black's game is unpleasant. If there was not it, everyone would play the Archangel because in the "old" main lines of this opening there seems that nothing is wrong! At least, this is my view. Maybe i am wrong....



Well, are we going to see the refutation of what I gave, or a sample line??
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2073
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #19 - 08/01/12 at 14:25:41
Post Tools
Well lethal or not there definetly won't be a 'best' way to handle it - its rather too slow/flexible for that Smiley It's whether you're giving white slightly more than he deserves/you want to in a slow position.

That's a fairly subjective judgement really, so if you like the rest of the lines then have a look at the games involving this and decide how you feel about how they tend to go.
(And the anologous anti Marshalls so you can see what the tempo difference is like Smiley).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #18 - 08/01/12 at 13:24:11
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 08/01/12 at 13:08:52:
No, i disagree. It is quite "lethal" if you compare the h3-Anti Marshall (where Black has to play well to equalise and even if he does White has a quite pleasant position as was shown by Bologan in his Ruy Lopez DVD Vol 2) with this line, you'll see that this tempo is very important (the not-h3 move). Also, the Bd6 variation is well known, but it doesn't equalise as shown again by Bologan in his DVD. Black's game is unpleasant. If there was not it, everyone would play the Archangel because in the "old" main lines of this opening there seems that nothing is wrong! At least, this is my view. Maybe i am wrong....



Well, I can't really comment on this because I don't have the DVD. You guys' point about the h3 tempo is understandable, of course. I just don't really think that's totally critical as someone may argue (as I think Kosten has elsewhere on here) that d3 doesn't really much give White the advantage because this is normally achieved by c3 and d4 (which is really why h3 is necessary).

Plus, the argument that the variation must be defective because it's currently unfashionable - well, I prefer to see analytical evidence. It appears that since this line still appears in (strong)master praxis, that a lot of White players don't know the "best" way to handle it either...or at least in a way that suggests a characterization of "lethal."
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: 1.e4 e5 - An active Repertoire for Black
Reply #17 - 08/01/12 at 13:08:52
Post Tools
No, i disagree. It is quite "lethal" if you compare the h3-Anti Marshall (where Black has to play well to equalise and even if he does White has a quite pleasant position as was shown by Bologan in his Ruy Lopez DVD Vol 2) with this line, you'll see that this tempo is very important (the not-h3 move). Also, the Bd6 variation is well known, but it doesn't equalise as shown again by Bologan in his DVD. Black's game is unpleasant. If there was not it, everyone would play the Archangel because in the "old" main lines of this opening there seems that nothing is wrong! At least, this is my view. Maybe i am wrong....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo