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Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? (Read 5986 times)

tony37 God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Joined: 10/16/10	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #8 - 07/28/12 at 17:59:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: a quick update on the last post. Actually, 17...Rxb2 doesn't feel natural, as Black's compensation is the c-file and rook activity rather than the b-pawn. Still OK for a draw, though. Regarding Girkassa's questions : 1) 19...h6 looks slow, after e.g. 20.Ne5 Qg5 21.Re3 Ng4 22.Nxg4 Qxg4 23.Qc4 Black can't be better ; 2) after 23.Qxe4 Qxe4 24.Rb2 Rf4, the Knight is strong and Black must give a pawn to free his rook. At this point it looks wise to take the draw. So, in the whole line starting with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3 6.Qxc3 d5 7.Nf3 dxc4 8.Qxc4 b6 9.Bg5 Ba6, it seems that White can draw at once with the unpretentious 10.Bxf6. Possibly a question for the next edition of Emms Q&A Nimzo book I always thought the 4. Qc2 O-O 5. a3 Bxc3 6. Qxc3 d5 line was just a 'try for a draw' invented by Kramnik (just like the Slav line 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. f3 c5 8. e4 Bg6 9. Be3 cxd4 10. Qxd4 Qxd4 11. Bxd4 Nfd7 12. Nxd7 Nxd7 13. Bxc4): White is better (in the critical lines), but not much, so with good 'technique' Black should be able to draw without too many problems. So if White can force a draw, that's just what Black wants. There are a lot of Nimzo-lines that are more suitable if you want to play for a win as Black.


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Girkassa Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 433 Joined: 04/07/07	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #7 - 07/27/12 at 06:10:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	I can agree that 1) is a little slow and maybe not what you want if in a must-win situation, but I still believe Black has fair chances to play for a win in 2). So, leaving 1) aside, I have taken a somewhat deeper look on the endgame in 2). After 23.Qxe4 Qxe4 24.Rxe4 (I suppose that is what you meant) I suggest 24...Rc2 instead of Rb2. Then Black can chase back the knight with ...f6 without allowing Nc6. White must spend some moves getting the h1 rook into play, two possible lines being 25.Rf4 f6 26.Ng4 Ra2 27.Nf2 Rxa3 28.Kg2 Rc3 and 25.Kf1 Rd5 26.Re2 Rc3 27.Rf2 f6 28.Nf3 Rxa3 29.Kg2. In both cases, I think both sides can still play for a win. Black has two connected passed pawns that could quickly turn dangerous, and White must also watch after his pawn on d4. Meanwhile, Black also has a weakness on e6, and White could try to arrange a kingside attack.


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zoo Ex Member	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #6 - 07/25/12 at 19:44:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	a quick update on the last post. Actually, 17...Rxb2 doesn't feel natural, as Black's compensation is the c-file and rook activity rather than the b-pawn. Still OK for a draw, though. Regarding Girkassa's questions : 1) 19...h6 looks slow, after e.g. 20.Ne5 Qg5 21.Re3 Ng4 22.Nxg4 Qxg4 23.Qc4 Black can't be better ; 2) after 23.Qxe4 Qxe4 24.Rb2 Rf4, the Knight is strong and Black must give a pawn to free his rook. At this point it looks wise to take the draw. So, in the whole line starting with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3 6.Qxc3 d5 7.Nf3 dxc4 8.Qxc4 b6 9.Bg5 Ba6, it seems that White can draw at once with the unpretentious 10.Bxf6. Possibly a question for the next edition of Emms Q&A Nimzo book


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zoo Ex Member	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #5 - 07/24/12 at 12:30:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Girkassa: a quick comment regarding (2) : we checked it "by hand" with friends after a game and concluded that Black still has a draw after the Queen swap. Some computer help may clarify since it is a forcing line, but I don't know if Black can reject the draw here. To be checked for sure, thanks.


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Girkassa Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 433 Joined: 04/07/07	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #4 - 07/24/12 at 11:58:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	In the line 15...Rc2 16.g3 Nf6 17.Re1 Rxb2 18.Qc1 Ra2 19.Kg2 you say 19...Nxe4 "is a nice computer draw." I have two suggestions here: 1) Cannot Black play on with a normal move like 19...h6 ? The position is probably equal, but it seems unbalanced enough for both sides to play for a win. 2) I assume the nice computer draw is the line 19...Nxe4 20.Qc6 Rxf2+ 21.Kg1 Rd8 22.Ne5 Qf5 23.Qxe4 and now Black can take a perpetual with 23...Rf1+. But cannot Black play on by exchanging queens? Black will win one more pawn, resulting in three pawns for the knight. Again, this is probably about equal, but certainly unbalanced, and I would not call it an easy draw for either side.


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #3 - 07/24/12 at 08:17:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree that it's not so easy to play for a win against 10.Bxf6, but 9...Ba6 isn't the only good move; 9...Bb7 has a similar theoretical standing. That said it isn't so easy for Black to play for a win against 10.Qa4 or 10.Qc2 either, unless he is willing to take some significant risks.

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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #2 - 07/24/12 at 07:22:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, 10.Bxf6 is a draw move. And white can accomplish the desired draw result in the variation you give. Put aside the fact that if white wants more than a simple draw he can play 10.Qa4 or 10.Qc2.. But if black is the one who wants to fight for more, he can play 6...b6 or 7...Nbd7 and avoid entering this draw variation.


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barnaby Senior Member Offline The night is dark and full of terrors. Posts: 345 Joined: 01/09/12 Gender:	Re: Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? Reply #1 - 07/24/12 at 01:38:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Why would white play 10. Bxf6 is that position? I think there has to be better moves for White to consider there rather than giving up the B pair for no reason.


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zoo Ex Member	Nimzo 4.Qc2 0-0 subline with Qxc7, draw or more? 07/23/12 at 23:37:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, An enterprising line for Black in the 4.Qc2 nimzo is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3 6.Qxc3 d5 7.Nf3 dxc4 8.Qxc4 b6. Black gains time on the Queen and jettisons the c-pawn, e.g. 9.Bg5 Ba6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6 11.Qxc7 (not forced) 12..Rc8 12.Qe5 Qg6. Black is ready to invade on c2 with good prospects, but what if White shuts the door with 13.e4 ? Black is definitely no worse, but if White just wants a draw, I can't see how it can be avoided. Here are some sample lines, can you point a way forward, or is there just enough compensation for a draw ? Download game in pgn format


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