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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is the Classical Sicilian that bad? (Read 76066 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #40 - 06/12/17 at 17:54:36
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After 6. Bg5 e6  7. Qd2 Be7 8. O-O-O O-O 9. f4 Nxd4 10. Qxd4 h6 11. Bh4 Bd7 12. e5 dxe5 13. fxe5 Nd5 14. Bxe7 Qxe7 15. Nxd5 exd5, black is OK if white plays the obvious move 16Qxd5. Black can respond with Bg4 or Bc6 with a good game despite being a pawn down.

Unfortunately 16. Bd3! seems to favor white somewhat, as far as I can tell.
  
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fjd
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #39 - 06/11/17 at 21:11:49
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Fair point. I suppose in the version without ...h6, Black would do better to take on b2 instead of ...Bd4, but that looks like it leads to a Rook ending that's better for White.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #38 - 06/11/17 at 20:55:02
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There is an Informant monograph (FIDE chess) on B60-5.

Glenn Wilson did some great analysis. 15...Qb6!? can be used against both 15Qb4 and 15Qe3. Still 15Qb4 a5!? has a certain RR charm.

I would love to do without h6. But consider the following line:

6. Bg5 e6  7. Qd2 Be7 8. O-O-O O-O 9. f4 Nxd4 10. Qxd4 h6 11. Bh4 Bd7 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. Qxd6 Bc6 14. Qxd8 Rfxd8 15. Bb5 Bxc3 16. Bxc6 Bd4 17. Bxb7 Rab8 18.c3 Be3+ 19. Kc2 Rxd1 20. Rxd1 Rxb7

Isn't it nice to have luft?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #37 - 06/11/17 at 20:21:51
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/11/17 at 20:05:15:

FIDE put out a little book on B60-5. They covered this, but without h6 Bh4.


FIDE?  I thought you might be referring to an Informant monograph, but as far as I know they didn't do B65.  (They're still offering B66 and B67-69 ...)
  
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fjd
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #36 - 06/11/17 at 20:11:09
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/11/17 at 20:05:15:


I think black has to include h6 Bh4. 


I was about to suggest the opposite, actually - does Black necessarily have to throw in ...h6, potentially weakening the Kingside and giving White the extra option of 11 h4 - ?
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #35 - 06/11/17 at 20:05:15
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Of course you're not convinced. It is an absurd line. If 15...Bc6, then 16Ne4 as you suggested. 15...a5 seems better.

FIDE put out a little book on B60-5. They covered this, but without h6 Bh4. I think black has to include h6 Bh4. They suggested ...a5 Qb3, end of analysis. It seems to me that capturing the b pawn is more natural.

So to recap:
6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 Be7 8. O-O-O O-O  9. f4 h6 10. Bh4 Nxd4 11. Qxd4 Bd7 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. e5 Be7 14. exd6 Bf6 15. Qb4!? a5!

And now 16. Qxb7 Bxc3 17. bxc3 Rb8 18. Qc7 Qf6 unclear.
  
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fjd
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #34 - 06/11/17 at 19:58:16
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Ah, I've found the answer to my own question.

The slightly paradoxical 15...Qb6! when:

A) 16 a3 Qe3+ 17 Kb1 a5! (17...Bxc3 18 Qxc3 Qxc3 19 bxc3 is possible as well) 18 Qe4 (18 Qb3 Qxf4=) 18...Qc5 and Black has a serious initiative.

B) 16 Qxb6 axb6 and now:

   B1) 17 Ne4 Rxa2 18 Nxf6+ gxf6 19 Bc4 Ra5 - despite Black's mess of a structure, I don't see a clear way forward for White.

   B2) 17 Bb5 Bxb5 18 Nxb5 gives back the pawn in exchange for breaking the blockade on the d7 square. However, after 18...Rxa2 19 c3 Ra5 followed by ...Rd8 and ...Rd7, I don't see any problems for Black.

   B3) 17 Bc4 Bc6! (I think this is more accurate than 17...Bxc3 18 bxc3 Bc6 because now 19 Rhe1!; White can ignore the threat to his g2 pawn, because without the Bishop on f6, the d-pawn is far more dangerous.) 18 f5!? (18 Rhg1 Bxc3 19 bxc3 Ra4=), and now a sample variation could go 18...Bxc3 19 bxc3 exf5 20 Rhe1 b5 21 Bd5 Rfd8 22 Kb2 Kf8 23 Re7 Bxd5 24 Rxd5 Rxd6! 25 Rxf7+ Kxf7 26 Rxd6 f4 with an ending that should be okay for Black.

This can also be played if White tries 15 Qe3 instead of 15 Qb4, as after 15 Qe3 Qb6!, I don't really think White has anything better than taking on b6.


  
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fjd
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #33 - 06/11/17 at 19:24:24
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I can't say I'm convinced - what's the plan after 15 Qb4 (intending Ne4) - ?
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #32 - 06/11/17 at 18:18:46
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Here is one interesting way:

6. Bg5! e6 7. Qd2 Be7 8. O-O-O O-O  9. f4 h6 10. Bh4 Nxd4 11. Qxd4 Bd7!? 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. e5 Be7 14. exd6 Bf6

  
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #31 - 06/11/17 at 17:12:58
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Alex Fishbein -- now there's a Classical Sicilian player from way back ...
  
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jdart
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #30 - 06/11/17 at 16:54:05
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fjd wrote on 06/11/17 at 05:38:51:
What's happening if White inserts 12 Bxf6 Bxf6 before going e5?


That is what the Hiarcs opening book recommends. It looks good for White. One game:

  
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fjd
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #29 - 06/11/17 at 05:38:51
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What's happening if White inserts 12 Bxf6 Bxf6 before going e5?
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #28 - 06/11/17 at 03:37:08
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"I might return to the Classical if I could find a line I really trust against the Richter-Rauzer"

I found a fun speed game at the ICC:

[Event "ICC"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2017.06.10"]
[White "SillyWizard"]
[Black "yozhik"]
[Result "*"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 Be7 8. O-O-O O-O 9. f4 h6 10. Bh4 Nxd4 11. Qxd4 Bd7 12. e5 dxe5 13. fxe5 Nd5 14. Bxe7 Qxe7 15. Nxd5 exd5 16. Qxd5 Bg4 17. Re1 Rfd8 18. Qe4 Qg5+ 19. Kb1 Bf5 20. Qf3 Bxc2+ 21. Ka1 Rac8 22. Be2 Bd1 23. a3 Qc1+ 24. Ka2 Rd2 25. Qxb7 Rxb2+ 26. Qxb2  Rc2 *

A line you can trust.  Wink

  

SillyWizard-yozhik.pgn ( 0 KB | 270 Downloads )
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CarriedbyGg
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #27 - 05/22/17 at 08:45:22
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I also had the impression that it is fully playable, although more passive than other tries. The bishop often doesn't need to go to e7, that's why these refinements like the Kozul variation became more popular. Structure-wise, it's of course the same. But you committed your bishop to a passive square already, whereas in other lines it might go to g7 or h6.
On the other hand, lines may be less forcing.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #26 - 05/21/17 at 23:35:17
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Well, I don't know that anyone has ever claimed that that old Spassky main line (as I think of it) isn't playable.   

I'm reminded that Edmar Mednis chose between 9...Be7 and 9...b5 based on the tournament situation and such.
  
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