Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is the Classical Sicilian that bad? (Read 65427 times)
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 699
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #92 - 01/05/24 at 23:36:36
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 01/05/24 at 05:40:04:
I'm inclined to wonder about is why 6...e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. 0-0-0 Bd7 9. f4 Be7 10. Nf3 b5 11. Bxf6 is so much more popular than 11. e5.


I can't say. I wouldn't be surprised if 11e5 were to become more popular. Over the last two years with players rated above 2400, the score has been +7, =4, -5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4897
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #91 - 01/05/24 at 15:45:10
Post Tools
I seem to recall Shankland (author of a product for the black side) commenting to the effect that (6...e6) 7. Qd3 is a worthy try and Black needs to know what [s]he's doing.

Chess Openings: Theory and Practice from the 1960s (supposedly by I. A. Horowitz, but according to an ordinary chessplayer actually not) attributed 7. Qd3 to Keres.

Re 6...Qb6, I note that the yellow ECO reboot of a few years ago gave 7. Be3 a6 as one of the paths to a slight advantage for White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kerangali
Full Member
***
Offline


I am every one and every
zero

Posts: 161
Joined: 02/12/22
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #90 - 01/05/24 at 14:55:05
Post Tools
Indeed, Cheparinov recommends 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd3 for White in the Richter-Rauzer, as well as 6.Bg5 Qb6?! 7.Be3! (his punctuation). It's in the preview at the end of
https://www.modern-chess.com/top-level-repertoire-against-the-sicilian-part-1-7-...

edit: Browsing with the Lichess comp on the 6. Bg5 Qb6 7. Be3 line:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
With White's bishop still on f1, Black shouldn't take on b2:

A) 7...Qxb2? 8. Ndb5 Qb4 9. Bd2 Qc5!?
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Hoping for 10. Nc7+ Kd8 11. Nxa8 Ng4 12. Qf3 Nd4 13. Qd1 Nb5 with a repetition, but White is on top after 10. Rb1! Ng4 11.Qe2 Rb8 12.h3, Goins-Vroom 2004.

B) if Black doesn't want to play tempo-down lines with Qc7 or Qa5, he can try 7...a6 when 8. a3 or 8. Nb3 are OK for White, as Black will soon regroup with Qc7 and e6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4897
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #89 - 01/05/24 at 05:40:04
Post Tools
Regarding B68-69, a thing I'm inclined to wonder about is why 6...e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. 0-0-0 Bd7 9. f4 Be7 10. Nf3 b5 11. Bxf6 is so much more popular than 11. e5. (In the ChessBase online database they score identically. Historical tidbit: in the '90s, Nunn's Chess Openings and a Russian encyclopedia had 11. e5 as preferable.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 699
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #88 - 01/05/24 at 01:28:14
Post Tools
The Richter-Rauzer is the main hurdle and Black seems to be doing well in the B67-B69 lines based in high level games played the last two years. The play is sharp.

I've looked at 6...Qb6 (B60) in the past and was not satisfied with Black's chances. However, GM V. Durabeyli (2625) has had good results against 2400+ players the last two years. As Black, he's won 5 games, lost 3, with 2 draws. Against 2600 rated players he's even.

White has done well deviating from the main line. Successful sidelines the last two years are bolded:  1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 (7. Qd3) a6 8. O-O-O Bd7 (9. Kb1) 9. f3 or 9. f4. I assume Black is less prepared in those lines, but reason enough to consider this from either side of the board.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 699
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #87 - 07/14/23 at 15:41:47
Post Tools
fjd wrote on 06/11/17 at 21:11:49:
I suppose in the version without ...h6, Black would do better to take on b2 instead of ...Bd4, but that looks like it leads to a Rook ending that's better for White.


This is a blast from the distant past, but perhaps with a new conclusion. After

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 Be7 8. O-O-O O-O 9. f4 Nxd4 10. Qxd4 Bd7 11. Bf6 Bf6 12. Qd6 Bc6 13. Qd8 Rfd8 14. Bb5 Bc3 15. Bc6 Bb2 16. Kb2 bc6 17. Kc3,
I came to the conclusion that Black was lost.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

New engines, new insights. It now seems that all rook endgames are drawn.
17... e5! 18. f5 Rab8! 19. Kc4 Kf8 20. Kc5 Rb5! 21. Kc6 Rdb8 22. Rd8! Rd8 23. Kb5 Rd2
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

This ending appears to be drawn, though Black probably needs to demonstrate more ingenuity than White.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 699
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #86 - 05/11/23 at 17:40:38
Post Tools
After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. O-O-O Bd7, 9. f3 is challenging, both because it is a good move and because the play is not so concrete. The main response in the past was 9...Be7. Black develops and can later choose between Nxd4 or Ne5. Perhaps the problem is that just when Black is ready to commit to one to one knight move or another, White plays Nxc6!?

Carlsen played 9...Nxd4, Anand - Carlsen 2018, and 9...Nxd4 10.Qxd4 quickly became a major line.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

10...Bc6 tries to make sense out of Black's play. Moves 8 through 11 put Black's bishop on the long diagonal. 10...Bc6 is mentioned, though not recommended, by Avrukh. Brandon Jacobon has played it with reasonable results. It's often the case that ...d5 e5 ensues with a French type of position. Avrukh also mentions 10...h6 11Be3 Bc6, with similar ideas. Nuances may be important though.

The main move by far is 10...Be7. It seems odd to leave the Bishop on d7. It's like playing g6 and not following-up with Bg7 in other openings. However, White has no immediate to prove Black's game wrong and the Bishop does cover important squares. For example if ...b5-b4, White can not play Na4. Also ...b5 ...a5 may become possible.

White has many moves, perhaps the main one being 11.Kb1.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*[/fen]

Several authors have considered 11...b5 and 11...Qc7. The moves may, but need not, transpose. Kozul mentions 11...0-0, but only to make a point about the desirabilty of 11.Kb1:  11. Kb1 O-O 12. Bf6 Bf6 13. Qd6 Qa5 14. Nd5 ed5 15. e5

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

"15...Bg5 does not arrive with check," Kozul. True enough, but Black is not lost in this position. He has 15...Bxe5, and even better 15...Bf5! 16. ef6 Bc2 17. Kc2 Qa4 18. Kd2 Qd4 19. Bd3 Qb2, which Stockfish assesses as equal.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

White does not have to play 12Bxf6. 12.g4? Nxe4! is fine for Black. However, bishop retreats (12Be3, 12Bd2, 12Bc1) and also 12h4 are possible.

11...Bc6, similar to 10...Bc6, may also be possible.
« Last Edit: 05/12/23 at 13:02:16 by FreeRepublic »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 699
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #85 - 11/16/22 at 17:49:13
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 07/02/22 at 21:46:39:
I note that there have been several recent publications on the Classical Sicilian.


I gave a list to which I will add one more by GM Bryan Smith:
https://www.365chess.com/view/shop/beating-1-e4-with-the-classical-sicilian-gm-b...

Many authors have advocated:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. O-O-O Bd7 9. f3 Nxd4 10. Qxd4 Be7 11. h4 Qc7 12. Kb1 b5  13. Qd2 b4 14. Ne2 a5  for Black. White's moves (11 through 14) may seem an odd combination of aggression and restraint, but seem to work. I think 15.c4!, so far unmentioned, is a problem for Black.

GM Cheparinov varies for Black.
(1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. O-O-O Bd7 9. f3 Nxd4 10. Qxd4 Be7 11. Kb1 Qc7 12. h4 b5 13. Qd2) h6 14. Be3 h5 15. Bg5 b4 16. Ne2 a5. 17.c4 is still possible but not so dangerous. For example:  17. c4 Ba4 18. Rc1 e5 19. Ng3 g6 and Black is O.K. If Black had tried something like this in the first sequence (without ...h6 and ...h5) he would be overrun by h5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mikhail_Golubev
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 55
Location: Odessa
Joined: 02/17/04
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #84 - 08/15/22 at 00:53:51
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 08/13/22 at 02:14:24:
I downloaded the App Book! Clearly anyone who plays the Sicilian from either side of the board will will find it highly valuable.

Thank you!
I have some information about this book, my 4th, at https://mikhailgolubev.wordpress.com/chess-projects/understandingthesicilian/
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 699
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #83 - 08/13/22 at 02:14:24
Post Tools
I downloaded the App Book! Clearly anyone who plays the Sicilian from either side of the board will will find it highly valuable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mikhail_Golubev
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 55
Location: Odessa
Joined: 02/17/04
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #82 - 08/12/22 at 23:29:01
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 08/04/22 at 19:46:50:
Some (all?) of my old answers to the Velimirovic Sozin are under pressure. If nothing else, this is a reminder that there is more to the Classical Sicilian than just the Rauzer variation (6Bg5).

Mikhail Golubev probably looks at the Velimirovic in his e-book and app-book:

http://gambitbooks.com/books/Understanding_the_Sicilian.html


Somehow there are just 4 annotated Velimirovic Attack games (albeit with quite much stuff inside):
117. Golubev – I. Sokolov, Moscow PCA rapid Qualifier 1994 (1–0)
118. Golubev – D. Maximov, Chebanenko mem (rapid), Kishinev 2012 (0–1)
119. Golubev – Grasis, USSR Junior Team Ch, Dimitrovgrad 1988 (1/2)
120. Golubev – Ko˛ul, Skopje open 1991 (1–0)
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4897
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #81 - 08/05/22 at 00:55:05
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 08/04/22 at 19:46:50:
Some (all?) of my old answers to the Velimirovic Sozin are under pressure. If nothing else, this is a reminder that there is more to the Classical Sicilian than just the Rauzer variation (6Bg5).

Mikhail Golubev probably looks at the Velimirovic in his e-book and app-book:

http://gambitbooks.com/books/Understanding_the_Sicilian.html

Hmm.  For what it's worth, in the B89 section of ECO-B2 (2021) there is one column ending with +=; the other 27 columns are all equal, unclear or with compensation.

I see that the second most recent time Chess Publishing addressed the Velimirovic, in 2017, involved a game in which Loek van Wely was lost with Black within 20 moves.  I was aware of a 2019 game (Bosch-Werle) in which another Dutch GM lost with Black in the same line:  1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bc4 e6 7. Be3 Be7 8. Qe2 a6 9. O-O-O Qc7 10. Bb3 O-O 11. Rhg1 Na5 12. g4 Nxb3+ 13. axb3 b5 14. g5 Nd7 15. f4 b4 16. Nf5 exf5? 17. Nd5 Qd8 18. exf5 Re8 19. Bd4!! (the "?" and "!!" are from Golubev's Sozin book of 21 years ago).  I'm a bit curious as to whether Jeroen Bosch had anything to say about that game in his recent book on opening preparation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 699
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #80 - 08/04/22 at 19:46:50
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 07/02/22 at 21:46:39:
Recent publications on the Classical Sicilian:

Classical Sicilian - Expert Repertoire for Black  by GM Ivan Cheparinov , June 19, 2022


I went ahead and bought this as there is currently a 60% off Sale on all 1e4 data bases.

Some (all?) of my old answers to the Velimirovic Sozin are under pressure. If nothing else, this is a reminder that there is more to the Classical Sicilian than just the Rauzer variation (6Bg5).

Mikhail Golubev probably looks at the Velimirovic in his e-book and app-book:

http://gambitbooks.com/books/Understanding_the_Sicilian.html
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Isolani
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 28
Joined: 04/19/10
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #79 - 07/03/22 at 05:42:48
Post Tools
You could add to the list the excellent, by my standards, "Classical sicilian" by IM Benjamin Haldorsen on Chess24. I'm new to the Classical and didn't check much yet, but I enjoyed is explanations and choices of lines. Against the Rauzer it's 9...Be7  and 9...h6 as a second string.
Kotronias is preparing a "Modernized Richter Rauzer" for thinkers publishing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4897
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is the Classical Sicilian that bad?
Reply #78 - 07/02/22 at 22:15:11
Post Tools
I recall Shankland saying he thinks that if the Najdorf is a 10 in terms of theoretical standing, the Classical is a 9 (and much more practical).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo