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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch (Read 23336 times)
Benoniac
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #17 - 09/14/12 at 19:09:38
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I just have to side with Tony37 here on this issue; to me its seems that all black is doing is defending. I see you guys are discussing the 13.Bf4 line, which could prove to be problematic for black. In fact I ran a engine match last night and Houdini won against Deep Rybka 4.1 in this line. I also ran the engines 2. choice 13.Bg2 and Houdini won even quicker. Here is that game:

Houdini 2.0c x64 - Deep Rybka 4.1 SSE42 x64 [D32]
Tony37 test, Blitz 45m+30s  14.09.2012
[0.24;0.05]
Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2300 CPU @ 2.80GHz 2793 MHzW=16.5 plies; 8 345kN/sB=27.6 plies; 487kN/s 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dxc5 d4 7.Na4 Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9.Bd2 Qxc5 10.b4 Nxb4 11.Rc1 Qd6 12.g3 Nf6 13.Bg2 Both last book move 13...0–0  0.05/18  1:27  14.0–0 (Bf4)  0.24/25  2:17  14...Nxa2  0.05/21  2:34  15.Rc4  0.26/26  1:34  d3 (Be6)  0.05/20  2:36  16.e4 (exd3)  0.31/24  1:23  16...Qb6  0.00/20  1:37  17.e5  0.81/22  2:25  Nd5  0.00/20  45  18.Ng5 (Qa1)  0.81/20  0  18...Qb5 (Ne7)  -0.10/19  4:57  19.Rh4  1.75/19  2  h6  1.43/17  3:30  20.Ne4  1.96/18  9  Ne7 (Qe8)  1.43/17  3:58  21.Nf6+ (Rh5)  29.36/17  29  21...gxf6  #11/21  1:55  22.Qh5  28.81/16  0  Ng6 (Qa4)  #10/21  1:05  23.Qxh6  #10/15  0  Nxh4  #9/26  1:09  24.exf6  #9/14  0  Nf5  #8/30  1:12  25.Qg5+  #8/13  0  ¢h8  #7/32  2:11  26.¥e4 (g4)  #7/12  0  26...Nc3 (Nc1)  #6/30  1:50  27.Bxc3  #6/11  0  d2  #5/32  1:26  28.Bxd2  #5/10  0  Bd7 (Qxf1+)  #4/31  54  29.Bxf5  #4/9  0  Qxf1+  #3/39  55  30.Kxf1  #3/1  0  Bb5+  #2/52  1:07  31.Kg1  #2/9  0  Be2 (Bd3)  #1/59  34  32.Qg7# #1/1  0  1–0

Indeed this 10.b4!? idea could be diffucult to defend in practical play for black.

Ben
 
  

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JEH
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #16 - 09/14/12 at 18:21:52
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tony37 wrote on 09/13/12 at 22:16:32:
The 12.e3 dxe3 13.Bc3 Nd5 line is definitely not fine according to engines, if you give them a bit of time, just take a look at the position after 18.Rxc3 (and I think this line is basically forced) and try to find a good move for black. I think black is probably lost here, but anyway it's completely unplayable.


Hmm, yes. My instinct did hear ambulance sirens wailing over Black's position, but yes, it could be a bust. http://youtu.be/Z0GFRcFm-aY

Must be the endgame line for Black then.

tony37 wrote on 09/13/12 at 22:16:32:
About 12.g3 Nge7 13.Bf4 Qd5, that was my first thought too, but a closer look proved otherwise: 14.Qxd4 Nxa2 15.Rd1 (probably better than Rc5) Qxd4 16.Nxd4 and now for example: 16...a6 17.Bg2 Nc3 18.Rc1 Ncd5 (Nb5 19.Nxb5 axb5 20.Rc7 Ra1+ 21.Kd2 Ra2+ 22.Kc3...) 19.Bd6 Bg4 20.h3 Be6 21.O-O (Houdini first suggests Bxe7 here but I think it's better to keep the bishop pair) Rd8 22.Ba3...
Black is defending, has problems to castle, suffers from white's bishop pair, you simply don't want this out of the opening.


Better without the inclusion of 16...a6 17.Bg2 according to Deep Rybka. White's a little better maybe, but not the end of the world.

  

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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #15 - 09/13/12 at 22:16:32
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The 12.e3 dxe3 13.Bc3 Nd5 line is definitely not fine according to engines, if you give them a bit of time, just take a look at the position after 18.Rxc3 (and I think this line is basically forced) and try to find a good move for black. I think black is probably lost here, but anyway it's completely unplayable.

After 12.Rc4 black can indeed easily equalise with 12...Nc6 13. Nxd4 Nge7

About 12.g3 Nge7 13.Bf4 Qd5, that was my first thought too, but a closer look proved otherwise: 14.Qxd4 Nxa2 15.Rd1 (probably better than Rc5) Qxd4 16.Nxd4 and now for example: 16...a6 17.Bg2 Nc3 18.Rc1 Ncd5 (Nb5 19.Nxb5 axb5 20.Rc7 Ra1+ 21.Kd2 Ra2+ 22.Kc3...) 19.Bd6 Bg4 20.h3 Be6 21.O-O (Houdini first suggests Bxe7 here but I think it's better to keep the bishop pair) Rd8 22.Ba3...
Black is defending, has problems to castle, suffers from white's bishop pair, you simply don't want this out of the opening.
I think that black's best option most likely is 12.g3 Nf6 13.Bf4 Qe7 and now the critical line seems 14.Qxd4 Nc6 15.Qb2 O-O 16.Bg2 Re8 (Nd5 17.Bd2 Bf5 18.Nh4 Be4 19.f3 Bg6 20.Kf2 Rfe8 21.e4 Ndb4 22.Bxb4 Nxb4 23.Rhd1 Red8 24.Bf1 Rxd1 25.Rxd1 Rc8 26.Kg1) and here I see two tries for an advantage: 17.Be3 and 17.Rd1, there may be a route to (approximate) equality, but at the very least, it's a lot of extra lines Black has to know if he wants to play the Tarrasch
  
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JEH
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #14 - 09/13/12 at 20:38:04
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tony37 wrote on 09/12/12 at 13:50:41:
But in the 12.g3 line, white's bishop pair is a real nuisance.


I think in this line, my first thought is something like 12. ...Ne7 (better than Nf6 I think, as the Knights need to co-ordinate on c6) 13. Bf4 Qd5 14. Qxd5 Nxa2 leads to a ending which Black might be OK.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Benoniac
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #13 - 09/13/12 at 20:37:16
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Interesting move this 10.b4. And even though it may fizzle out to a drawish position, it seems that black must be aware (and ready!) for a lot of varations and punch if he wants to play the Tarrasch. And by the way, here is another game I found which was played recently:

(1) Graf,F (2394) - Kammers,H (2145) [D32]
ZMDI Open A 2012 Dresden GER (1), 18.08.2012
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dxc5 d4 7.Na4 Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9.Bd2 Qxc5 10.b4 Nxb4 11.Rc1 Qd6 12.Rc4 This, I think, was first mentioned by Babysnake Nc6 13.Nxd4 Nxd4 Probably a bit mistaken. (13... Nge7 14. e3 0-0 15. Be2 Rd8 16. 0-0 b5 17. Rc1 Nxd4 18. exd4 Bb7. There are alternatives of course but Black seems equal in all variations. - Kazzy)
14.Bb4 Nf3+ 15.gxf3 Qxd1+ 16.Kxd1 Be6 17.Rc7 Bxa2 18.e4 a6 19.Kc2 b5 20.Rg1 Kd8 21.Ba5 Ke8 22.Bh3 Nf6 23.Bb4 Kd8 24.Rb7 Be6 25.Bxe6 fxe6 26.Rgxg7 Ne8 27.Ba5+ Kc8 28.Rxh7 Rxh7 29.Rxh7 Nf6 30.Re7 Nh5 31.h4 Nf4 32.Rc7+ Kb8 33.Rf7 Nh5 34.Bc7+ Kc8 35.Be5 1–0

I got the GM Repertoaire Tarrasch book, and in this very varaition with 6.dxc5 ( which the autors to their credit gives a "!") black has to defend a lot. I think this very much sums up this variation  Smiley

Ben
  

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JEH
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #12 - 09/13/12 at 20:24:24
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/12/12 at 12:37:40:
My first thought about this is that you are right. This fxe3 is strong. But the endgame you mention seems fine for Black in practice. In fact i cannot really tell why the engines like White so much. I haven't really gone deep into this yet. I just offer you my first impressions.


I've been spending a bit more time on the ending line, and I'm agreeing with Ametanoitos and Tony37 about it being fine for Black.

It's an interesting position to see the problems with computer analysis. The engines like White. But there are a number of factors that have a far away horizon to assess, i.e. White's trapped Bishop on h8, Blacks connected passed pawns on a7/b7, and as pointed out, the lack of white pawns, the latter computers often get wrong - ooh thinks the engine, I'm a piece up  Wink

Also in practive, certainly at my level, I'd expect all 3 results possible, as it's quite a complicated position.

On the flip side, the Nd5 line which computers think is = for Black, I think is good compensation for White. Again, anything possible in practice here.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #11 - 09/12/12 at 13:50:41
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/12/12 at 12:37:40:
My first thought about this is that you are right. This fxe3 is strong. But the endgame you mention seems fine for Black in practice. In fact i cannot really tell why the engines like White so much. I haven't really gone deep into this yet. I just offer you my first impressions.

I now think the endgame may be fine, a problem for white is that there aren't many pawns left and in one line black can sacrifice a piece and grab white's remaining two pawns. But in the 12.g3 line, white's bishop pair is a real nuisance.
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #10 - 09/12/12 at 12:37:40
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My first thought about this is that you are right. This fxe3 is strong. But the endgame you mention seems fine for Black in practice. In fact i cannot really tell why the engines like White so much. I haven't really gone deep into this yet. I just offer you my first impressions.
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #9 - 09/08/12 at 23:10:25
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BabySnake wrote on 09/08/12 at 22:54:19:
I seem to remember I brought this move up in the long Tarrasch thread and Ametanoitos posted excellent analysis.

Yes, it's discussed here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1258876312/605

Interesting, but he only considers 12.e3 dxe3 13.Bc3 Nd5 14.Bb5+, the real problem is 14.fxe3 and now for example 14... Ngf6 15.e4 Qe7 16.Bb5+ Kf8 (here the e7-square is occupied by the queen) 17.O-O ...
(and then there's also 12.g3)

Maybe black just has to play 13... Qxd1+ 14.Kxd1 Nxa2 15.Bxg7 Nxc1 16.Kxc1 Bd7 17.fxe3 Rc8+ 18.Kd2 f6 19.Bxh8 Kf7 20.Bd3 Ne7 and now White has 21.Rb1 b6 22.Rc1 Rxh8 23.Rc7 Be6 24.Rxa7 Rd8 25.Nd4 h6 or 21.Ne5+ fxe5 22.Bxe5 Ke6 23.Bc3 Bc6 24.Rf1 Bxg2 25.Rf6+ Kd7 26.Rh6 Rd8 27.Rxh7 Ke6 28.Rh6+ Kf7 29.Kc2 Bd5 30.Kb2 Rg8 and so on, theoretically this is a draw but is this playable in practice? and of course there may be an improvement somewhere
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #8 - 09/08/12 at 22:54:19
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I seem to remember I brought this move up in the long Tarrasch thread and Ametanoitos posted excellent analysis.

Yes, it's discussed here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1258876312/605
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #7 - 09/08/12 at 14:06:18
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Djy wrote on 09/08/12 at 13:05:48:
Not completly news , just buy excellent Ametanoitos book!!

If you mean the Grandmaster Repertoire on the Tarrasch, it doesn't say anything about 10. b4 (but it's certainly a good book by the way)
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #6 - 09/08/12 at 13:14:16
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Djy wrote on 09/08/12 at 13:05:48:
Not completly news , just buy excellent Ametanoitos book!!


Ah thanks, I was wondering if it had been recommended somewhere. Which book?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #5 - 09/08/12 at 13:05:48
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Not completly news , just buy excellent Ametanoitos book!!
  

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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #4 - 09/08/12 at 12:08:58
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This gambit is really very interesting, both 10.b4 Nxb4 11.Rc1 Qd6 12.e3 and 12.g3 look potentially devastating
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #3 - 09/07/12 at 13:13:38
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JEH wrote on 09/07/12 at 11:04:00:
And the players are rated 1200  Shocked


It's probably LSS that may not allow OTB rating as start rating in corr - or something like that... Obviously the players are clearly stronger than 1200.
  
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