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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch (Read 23096 times)
JEH
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #32 - 09/17/12 at 19:23:00
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tony37 wrote on 09/15/12 at 00:11:04:
For the moment I don't see big problems anymore for black in the 10.b4 line, but he definitely has to be prepared


I've been catching up on the analysis. Thanks for everyone's contribution, it's been a fascinating position to examine.

In the computer match game, I think the more human 15. ...Be6, giving back one of the pawns and completing development is the way to go, rather than the greedy 15. ...d3

White has 2 Bishops. Black has connected passed pawns, with an extra one to boot. Game on!
  

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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #31 - 09/16/12 at 01:04:21
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tony37 wrote on 09/15/12 at 22:14:41:
WSS wrote on 09/15/12 at 21:32:44:
[quote author=445F5E490307300 link=1347006427/28#28 date=1347667864]
Hi Tony.  I was following the line in Nikos' post with 16... Bd7 and simply looked at 17. Ne5 instead of 17.  Bg2 because it looked more challenging since Black must return the pawn.

After 17. Rd2 Nc3; 18. Bg2 I would prefer 18... Bc6.  For example 19. Be5 Ne4; 20. Rc2 f6; 21. Bf4 Rd8 and Black maintains an edge.

Bill

You're really talking about something else, white's knight is on d4, no Ne5 possible.

I think 16...Bd7 17.Rd2 Nc3 18.Bg2 Ned5 19.Bd6 f5 20.O-O (20.Rd3 Rc8) Kf7 will do for black, white will win back the pawn, but has to give up the bishop pair.
For the moment I don't see big problems anymore for black in the 10.b4 line, but he definitely has to be prepared


Yes, you are right.  I must have mistakenly played 16. Rxd4 in setting up the position.
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #30 - 09/15/12 at 22:14:41
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WSS wrote on 09/15/12 at 21:32:44:
[quote author=445F5E490307300 link=1347006427/28#28 date=1347667864]
Hi Tony.  I was following the line in Nikos' post with 16... Bd7 and simply looked at 17. Ne5 instead of 17.  Bg2 because it looked more challenging since Black must return the pawn.

After 17. Rd2 Nc3; 18. Bg2 I would prefer 18... Bc6.  For example 19. Be5 Ne4; 20. Rc2 f6; 21. Bf4 Rd8 and Black maintains an edge.

Bill

You're really talking about something else, white's knight is on d4, no Ne5 possible.

I think 16...Bd7 17.Rd2 Nc3 18.Bg2 Ned5 19.Bd6 f5 20.O-O (20.Rd3 Rc8) Kf7 will do for black, white will win back the pawn, but has to give up the bishop pair.
For the moment I don't see big problems anymore for black in the 10.b4 line, but he definitely has to be prepared
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #29 - 09/15/12 at 21:32:44
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tony37 wrote on 09/15/12 at 00:11:04:
WSS wrote on 09/14/12 at 23:43:52:
Black also seems ok after 17. Ne5 Bb5; 18. Bg2 0-0; 19. Bxb7 Rad8; 20.  Rxd8  Rxd8.  Although he has given back his pawn, Black gets his minor pieces coordinated and has an outside passed (rook) pawn.

Bill

Not sure we're talking about the same position, how do you want to play Ne5?

After 16...Bd7 there's also 17.Rd2 Nc3 18.Bg2 Ned5 19.Bd6 to look at.


Hi Tony.  I was following the line in Nikos' post with 16... Bd7 and simply looked at 17. Ne5 instead of 17.  Bg2 because it looked more challenging since Black must return the pawn.

After 17. Rd2 Nc3; 18. Bg2 I would prefer 18... Bc6.  For example 19. Be5 Ne4; 20. Rc2 f6; 21. Bf4 Rd8 and Black maintains an edge.

Bill
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #28 - 09/15/12 at 00:11:04
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WSS wrote on 09/14/12 at 23:43:52:
Black also seems ok after 17. Ne5 Bb5; 18. Bg2 0-0; 19. Bxb7 Rad8; 20.  Rxd8  Rxd8.  Although he has given back his pawn, Black gets his minor pieces coordinated and has an outside passed (rook) pawn.

Bill

Not sure we're talking about the same position, how do you want to play Ne5?

After 16...Bd7 there's also 17.Rd2 Nc3 18.Bg2 Ned5 19.Bd6 to look at.
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #27 - 09/14/12 at 23:43:52
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/14/12 at 22:23:14:
It is easy to give up, but Tarrasch cannot die! My first thought, without looking at the position with an engine was what happens after

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 d4 7. Na4 Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qxc5 10. b4 Nxb4 11. Rc1 Qd6 12. g3 Ne7 13. Bf4 Qd5 14. Qxd4 Nxa2 15. Rd1 Qxd4 16. Nxd4 as tony37 gives and now what about the amazingly simple:

16...Bd7?

After 17. Bg2 Bc6 18. Nxc6 Nxc6 White has two wonderfull Bishops but Black is a pawn up with 2 connected passed pawns at th Q-side! This means that his Knights can find stable squares that have some influence to the center and in the long run i really cannot see Black losing this. I'd definately being worried as White though in practice!


Black also seems ok after 17. Ne5 Bb5; 18. Bg2 0-0; 19. Bxb7 Rad8; 20.  Rxd8  Rxd8.  Although he has given back his pawn, Black gets his minor pieces coordinated and has an outside passed (rook) pawn.

Bill
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #26 - 09/14/12 at 23:11:25
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doesn't look bad, white certainly can win back the pawn but it's playable
(I'm thinking of 19.Rd2 Nab4 20.Bd6 a5 21.O-O h5 22.Ra1 Rh6)
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #25 - 09/14/12 at 22:23:14
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It is easy to give up, but Tarrasch cannot die! My first thought, without looking at the position with an engine was what happens after

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 d4 7. Na4 Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qxc5 10. b4 Nxb4 11. Rc1 Qd6 12. g3 Ne7 13. Bf4 Qd5 14. Qxd4 Nxa2 15. Rd1 Qxd4 16. Nxd4 as tony37 gives and now what about the amazingly simple:

16...Bd7?

After 17. Bg2 Bc6 18. Nxc6 Nxc6 White has two wonderfull Bishops but Black is a pawn up with 2 connected passed pawns at th Q-side! This means that his Knights can find stable squares that have some influence to the center and in the long run i really cannot see Black losing this. I'd definately being worried as White though in practice!

I put this idea into a computer 10 minutes ago and at first the PC liked White but after a while it dropped to "=". I don't think that the machine can evaluate the long-term power of the pawns. I am not sure if Black is better, but worse? I don't think so. I may be horribly wrong though. Please share your thoughts!
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #24 - 09/14/12 at 21:31:32
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Ok. If you send me a PM with your email adr I will send you in cbv-format for chessbase. OK?.
But also the move ...Qa6!? was played after Bf4, just so you know it.
  

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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #23 - 09/14/12 at 21:18:30
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Benoniac wrote on 09/14/12 at 20:36:21:
@tony37
I dont think that 13.Bg2 is better than 13.Bf4. But I think that black has practical problems in both varaitions.

Ben


I'm not sure I agree with you here, after some analysis 12.g3 Nf6 13.Bg2 looks extremely dangerous.
If you still have that computer game with 12.g3 Nf6 13.Bf4, I'd like to have a look at it
  
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #22 - 09/14/12 at 20:41:23
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so I understood  Smiley
  

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JEH
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #21 - 09/14/12 at 20:40:07
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Benoniac wrote on 09/14/12 at 20:36:21:
I just saw that JEH stated a comment that he has given up the Tarrasch. May be not nessecary


My post was a little tongue in cheek on the other thread  Wink


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #20 - 09/14/12 at 20:36:21
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I think there is a lot of headaches for black in this 6.dxc5! line. The gambit varaition discussed here with 10.b4!? is may be just one of- if not THE  main problem.
I just saw that JEH stated a comment that he has given up the Tarrasch. May be not nessecary, but at the same time: it must be a bit  depressing to play with the black pieces after 6.dxc5. Just my opinion...
@tony37
I dont think that 13.Bg2 is better than 13.Bf4. But I think that black has practical problems in both varaitions.

Ben

  

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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #19 - 09/14/12 at 19:55:45
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JEH wrote on 09/14/12 at 18:21:52:
Better without the inclusion of 16...a6 17.Bg2 according to Deep Rybka. White's a little better maybe, but not the end of the world.
Then we have 16...Nc3 17.Rd3 Ncd5 18.Bd6 and black still has developing problems:
- 18...O-O 19.e4 Re8 20.Be2 Nb6 21.Nb5 Bh3 22.f3 Rac8 23.Kf2
- 18...Bd7 19.Bg2 a5 20.O-O Ra6 21.Bc5 b6 22.Ba3
- 18...h5 (my own suggestion to do something about that out-of-play rook) 19.Bg2 Bd7 20.Rb3 Rd8 21.O-O (or 21.e4) b6 22.Ra1
- 18...Bd7 19.Bg2 Rc8 20.O-O (or 20.Ra3) b6 21.Ra1 a5 22.Rb1
- 18...Bg4 19.Bg2 Rd8 20.Ba3 a6 21.O-O (or 21.Kd2!?)
- 18...Nc6 19.Nxc6 bxc6 20.e4

I really think black should look somewhere else

I now see the computer game run by benoniac (many thanks) and I admit I haven't looked very hard at 13.Bg2, I'll let you know if I find something interesting there

anyway, one fundamental problem for black is that he has given up the bishop pair on move 7, plus he developed his queen on move 8 (much too soon, the classics would say)
  
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JEH
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Re: Interesting Gambit novelty against the Tarrasch
Reply #18 - 09/14/12 at 19:42:20
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Benoniac wrote on 09/14/12 at 19:09:38:
I just have to side with Tony37 here on this issue; to me its seems that all black is doing is defending.
 


Ouch, what a walloping. Here's the game as a playable pgn


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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