tony37 wrote on 09/15/12 at 22:14:41:


Yes, you are right.  I must have mistakenly played 16. Rxd4 in setting up the position.

tony37 wrote on 09/15/12 at 00:11:04:


Hi Tony.  I was following the line in Nikos' post with 16... Bd7 and simply looked at 17. Ne5 instead of 17.  Bg2 because it looked more challenging since Black must return the pawn.

After 17. Rd2 Nc3; 18. Bg2 I would prefer 18... Bc6.  For example 19. Be5 Ne4; 20. Rc2 f6; 21. Bf4 Rd8 and Black maintains an edge.

Bill

Ametanoitos wrote on 09/14/12 at 22:23:14:


Black also seems ok after 17. Ne5 Bb5; 18. Bg2 0-0; 19. Bxb7 Rad8; 20.  Rxd8  Rxd8.  Although he has given back his pawn, Black gets his minor pieces coordinated and has an outside passed (rook) pawn.

Bill

It is easy to give up, but Tarrasch cannot die! My first thought, without looking at the position with an engine was what happens after 

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 d4 7. Na4 Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qxc5 10. b4 Nxb4 11. Rc1 Qd6 12. g3 Ne7 13. Bf4 Qd5 14. Qxd4 Nxa2 15. Rd1 Qxd4 16. Nxd4 as tony37 gives and now what about the amazingly simple:

16...Bd7?

After 17. Bg2 Bc6 18. Nxc6 Nxc6 White has two wonderfull Bishops but Black is a pawn up with 2 connected passed pawns at th Q-side! This means that his Knights can find stable squares that have some influence to the center and in the long run i really cannot see Black losing this. I'd definately being worried as White though in practice! 

I put this idea into a computer 10 minutes ago and at first the PC liked White but after a while it dropped to "=". I don't think that the machine can evaluate the long-term power of the pawns. I am not sure if Black is better, but worse? I don't think so. I may be horribly wrong though. Please share your thoughts!

Benoniac wrote on 09/14/12 at 20:36:21:

I'm not sure I agree with you here, after some analysis 12.g3 Nf6 13.Bg2 looks extremely dangerous.
If you still have that computer game with 12.g3 Nf6 13.Bf4, I'd like to have a look at it

Benoniac wrote on 09/14/12 at 20:36:21:


My post was a little tongue in cheek on the other thread 

JEH wrote on 09/14/12 at 18:21:52:
Then we have 16...Nc3 17.Rd3 Ncd5 18.Bd6 and black still has developing problems:
- 18...O-O 19.e4 Re8 20.Be2 Nb6 21.Nb5 Bh3 22.f3 Rac8 23.Kf2
- 18...Bd7 19.Bg2 a5 20.O-O Ra6 21.Bc5 b6 22.Ba3
- 18...h5 (my own suggestion to do something about that out-of-play rook) 19.Bg2 Bd7 20.Rb3 Rd8 21.O-O (or 21.e4) b6 22.Ra1
- 18...Bd7 19.Bg2 Rc8 20.O-O (or 20.Ra3) b6 21.Ra1 a5 22.Rb1
- 18...Bg4 19.Bg2 Rd8 20.Ba3 a6 21.O-O (or 21.Kd2!?)
- 18...Nc6 19.Nxc6 bxc6 20.e4

I really think black should look somewhere else

I now see the computer game run by benoniac (many thanks) and I admit I haven't looked very hard at 13.Bg2, I'll let you know if I find something interesting there

anyway, one fundamental problem for black is that he has given up the bishop pair on move 7, plus he developed his queen on move 8 (much too soon, the classics would say)