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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov (Read 17428 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #17 - 11/05/12 at 05:15:28
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The Taimanov is something I've looked at a fair bit.

re: 8...Be7 9.f3 h5 after 10.Nxc6 bxc6 (10...dxc6 might be better), but  11.Bf4 e5 12.Bg5 I simply have not found a way to fully balance the position for black. I think the Brazilian a better way to go theoretically, but the draw by repetition white can hypothetically force in the 12.Nce2 continuation is obnoxious.

re: 8...Bb4 9.f3 0-0 10.g4 b5 11.g5 Ne8 I, very much to my surprise, have found black avoiding a disadvantage. The play is incredibly complex, though. I wouldn't be surprised if white has something, I just don't see it yet.
  

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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #16 - 11/04/12 at 22:30:44
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Of course you also have Experts vs. the Sicilian and Dismantling the Sicilian. Some of the lines can be improved on, like e.g. Acs-Fancsy, 1997 and Nepomniachtchi-Karttunen, 2010. Palliser has commented on the latter game IIRC here at Chesspub, and Hellsten also gives his opion on this White set-up in Playing the Kan. The lines can be pretty forcing but theoretically they seem ok to me (I think I started a thread on this some time ago).

However, the choice to make, as you've mentioned before, is rather if you want to allow White to set up a Maroczy bind, or the English attack-type positions.

Neither options are bad, it is more what suits your style of play. And of course, how you want to respond to the Anti-Sicilians! I am actually thinking of responding to those with an occasional 1. e4 e6 Wink
  
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Michael Wilde
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #15 - 10/15/12 at 21:46:49
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Thanks a lot, your description of the Kan is great and I understand the differences in piece placement like the DSB being behind the pawn structure, and the knight going to d7 which being a long time Najdof player with ...e6 set-ups I would probably find these positions to be a lot like the ones I have played in the past.  And yes I do relish in the fact on white's attack allows black to counter!  The one problem I notice when playing the Sicilian is I don't have the best score agianst the English, which in the Kan is not really a problem, and against the Taimanov I still have some problems, but that may be becasue I am playing a different set-up that I am not used to yet.  The Maroczy bind is a problem to but it seems totally different to me when you don't fianchetto your DSB like in the Acc. Dragon which to me is just a dead draw.  But much more room to get creative in the Kan, like a h pawn rush or the Be7-d8-c7 with threats of d5 look good to me.  So I guess those are my two weak points and will have to see with some time of playing the Taimanov and Kan which problem I solve first or which position I like better, or play both! 

But Emms book huh?  I will check it out,  I thought it was outdated, but tha can be fixed with Databses, really I wanted different options against the Bind, when I look up the stats and the masters games in the Kan agains the Bind B41 and B42 the stats look good for black and the games look really interesting, whith some of the games only taking a short time to break with d5 or b5 and then all black's pieces spring into action and the black player goes for the kill!!!

Thanks for your time and advice, will look into Emms book, and try out the Kan in some of my games to see If I can handle the Attacks and the Bind.  It looks like a dependable, dynamic, flexible and solid opening...

« Last Edit: 10/15/12 at 23:09:54 by Michael Wilde »  

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ErictheRed
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #14 - 10/15/12 at 15:41:25
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Emms wrote a pretty good book on the Kan, though it's dated now.  I'd still suggest picking it up though, as it covers (more or less) every line and every way of playing the Kan, as opposed to Hellsten's book, which just gives you a repertoire.  Using Emms' book as a starting point, you can go on and do independent research in a database.

In my opinion, the Kan and Taimanov are not that similar; I'd say the Kan is closer to the Scheveningen and some Najdorf lines.  Of course you can use a Kan move order and follow up with ...Nc6, often transposing back into a Taimanov, but when I think of the Kan I generally think of putting the Knight on d7.  Also, there's a much greater chance that your dark-squared Bishop will end up on e7 behind a pawn on d6 in the Kan than in the Taimanov. 

I also think that you're more likely to come under a direct attack in the Kan, a la Scheveningen lines, than in the Taimanov.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, though; any true Sicilian player should relish this, as you'll have plenty of opportunities for counter-attacking and playing for a win later.

You have to look closely at the lines to see for yourself what you prefer.  5.Bd3 is certainly the critical try for White, and like Hellsten, I'm not big on the 5.Nc3 b5 6.Bd3 Qb6 line any more because of 7.Nf3!  For me personally, the 5.Nc3 b5 6.Bd3 Qb6 line was a big draw, so it's a bummer that 7.Nf3 turned out to be so difficult to deal with.  Fortunately it's not that well known among non-Masters, and I'll still play 6...Qb6 from time to time.

There's also the question of what to do after 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be2.  I'm not that high on the pure Kan approach of 6...b5 now, so in that position I'm likely to tranpose back into a Taimanov with 6...Nc6.  Of course there's 6...Nf6, but that really only delays your decision for one move.

I don't have a subscription to the Open Sicilian section of Chesspub, so can't comment on it.
  
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Michael Wilde
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #13 - 10/12/12 at 22:37:23
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ErictheRed wrote on 10/12/12 at 14:54:18:
Michael Wilde wrote on 09/10/12 at 22:13:58:
ErictheRed wrote on 09/10/12 at 22:06:42:
Do you have the first or second edition of The Safest Sicilian?  Because I'd say that the 1st is out of date (though I don't own the 2nd).



I have the Second edition, which I bought after one of your suggestions, that if I played the Taimanov I would probably want both books.  Which I am glad I did, giving me more options against the Maroczy Bind and also the Queen Exchange line where Emms covers 13. ...Kf8 and Delchev covers 13. ...Be5.  Very happy that I got it to have more options in different positions, so thanks for that!  I wasn't planning to buy the book for the English Chapters but became interested in the 8. ...Bb4 move against the English, as another way to play against it.   And breifly looking through the English chapter it looks like he made some changes and alternatives like for insatnce covering 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 the main line if I remember correctly and also covering 9. ...0-0 as an alternative, of course all this is new to me!

Smiley






Well I'm glad I could help you out with the book recommendation!  I've played the Kan pretty much exclusively over the past few years (I just got tired of the Taimanov after playing it for 12 years or so, though I'll still wheel it out on occasion, especially after Emms' book has kind of inspired me again).  Sorry I can't comment on the most current state of theory! 

One great advantage of the Taimanov is that the lines are less forcing than most other Sicilians, so you can move around and pick various ways of playing against each of White's setups.  It's one of those openings that it pays to be a specialist in, switching up responses and keeping your opponent guessing, IMO.

And as I mentioned in another thread, I think the anti-English Attack line 4...Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 is really worth a go; the only real downside is that White can play 6.Nxc6 now and supposedly Black would rather have his Queen on c7 than pawn on a6.  That may be true, but I still don't buy that White is getting any more than a very small edge there.

The anti-English Attack line I'm thinking of goes 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 Bb4 8.f3 d5, trying to use the Queen on a more active square than c7, for instance 9.a3 Qa5.  There's a good bit of theory here, too, and I don't think it's necessarily better for Black than the regular stuff, but it's another option, less explored, and a good way to out-prepare White, I think.



Thanks for the heads up on the Anti-English line, and playing a6 before Qc7, I notice that a lot of the top players when they play the Taimanov they play a6 first, so will investigate that.

I do have another question for you, and that is I have also recently become very interested in the Sicilain Kan!  I guess becuase it has similarities with Taimanov.  My Question to you is I have been looking through master games in the Kan and it is amazing how many different ways you can play it.  I also notice that some very strong players are playing it a lot lately and it is seen more often in some touraments I have been watching.  So what sources are you using to play this opening?, the only one I have is Play the Kan 2008, but like I said looking at master games there are so many options, I think Having the Taimanov and Kan together as my main weapons against 1.e4 make a lot of sense.  Do you just use databases and chesspub.com or some books?  I would really like to learn the Kan also so and advice would be great.  I also noticed that there are a variety of choices of style of play against the Maroczy Bind do you use Hellsten's recomended rep, or something else?
The 2 playes I have been following that grabed my interest in the Kan are Andreikin and Caruana, Caruana vs. Topalov at Tata steel was impressive and Andreikin using the Kan in tie breaks to win the Russian Super Finals was also inspiring!

[Event "Russian Superfinals (Tiebreak)"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "2012.08.13"]
[EventDate "2012.08.03"]
[Round "2"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Evgeny Alekseev"]
[Black "Dmitry Andreikin"]
[ECO "B42"]
[WhiteElo "2673"]
[BlackElo "2715"]
[PlyCount "78"]



Another reason is I get sick of facing the English Attack sometimes and would like the Kan in my rep so as to avoid it when  I want to.  So just got very interested in the Kan and would greatly appreciate advice on this very interesting dynamic opening, so far I have Play the Kan by Hellsten and Chesspub.com Open Siclian page.  And I play the Grunfeld as Black and was wondering which Sicilian compliments it, besides the Najdorf and looking at Svidler and Kamsky they both play the Kan as well.  This should probably be a new thread but not sure how to switch it to one.

Thanks again, and anytime you want to impart some Kan knowledge I am all ears!



« Last Edit: 10/12/12 at 23:39:13 by Michael Wilde »  

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ErictheRed
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #12 - 10/12/12 at 14:54:18
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Michael Wilde wrote on 09/10/12 at 22:13:58:
ErictheRed wrote on 09/10/12 at 22:06:42:
Do you have the first or second edition of The Safest Sicilian?  Because I'd say that the 1st is out of date (though I don't own the 2nd).



I have the Second edition, which I bought after one of your suggestions, that if I played the Taimanov I would probably want both books.  Which I am glad I did, giving me more options against the Maroczy Bind and also the Queen Exchange line where Emms covers 13. ...Kf8 and Delchev covers 13. ...Be5.  Very happy that I got it to have more options in different positions, so thanks for that!  I wasn't planning to buy the book for the English Chapters but became interested in the 8. ...Bb4 move against the English, as another way to play against it.   And breifly looking through the English chapter it looks like he made some changes and alternatives like for insatnce covering 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 the main line if I remember correctly and also covering 9. ...0-0 as an alternative, of course all this is new to me!

Smiley






Well I'm glad I could help you out with the book recommendation!  I've played the Kan pretty much exclusively over the past few years (I just got tired of the Taimanov after playing it for 12 years or so, though I'll still wheel it out on occasion, especially after Emms' book has kind of inspired me again).  Sorry I can't comment on the most current state of theory! 

One great advantage of the Taimanov is that the lines are less forcing than most other Sicilians, so you can move around and pick various ways of playing against each of White's setups.  It's one of those openings that it pays to be a specialist in, switching up responses and keeping your opponent guessing, IMO.

And as I mentioned in another thread, I think the anti-English Attack line 4...Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 is really worth a go; the only real downside is that White can play 6.Nxc6 now and supposedly Black would rather have his Queen on c7 than pawn on a6.  That may be true, but I still don't buy that White is getting any more than a very small edge there.

The anti-English Attack line I'm thinking of goes 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 Bb4 8.f3 d5, trying to use the Queen on a more active square than c7, for instance 9.a3 Qa5.  There's a good bit of theory here, too, and I don't think it's necessarily better for Black than the regular stuff, but it's another option, less explored, and a good way to out-prepare White, I think.
  
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Michael Wilde
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #11 - 10/11/12 at 23:10:28
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Anyone know the status of the following line in the Taimanov English Attack

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 O-O (Instead of the main line 9...Ne5) 10. g4 b5 11. g5 Ne8

I like the position but don't know of any real source to study it, It is mentioned in The Safest Siclian 2nd Edition but it does not go much further than this theory wise and the Author thought this is where the future might lay for the 8...Bb4 line. He also added that there was not much theory and it was black job to start to unravel the spring and regroup the knight on e8.

Looking at chessgames.com I found some interesting games played in this variation this year.

Smiley 


  

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Michael Wilde
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #10 - 09/11/12 at 20:42:14
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Quote:
Hello,
Bb4 vs English-attack Taimanov is quite playable but you must avoid being caught in a timely a3 Bb4-e7 Be3-f4 d6 sequence resulting in a poor scheveningen.
This thread had some discussion on this, as well as great analysis on the soon-to-become Brazilian Taimanov : http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1301377895/0
You will often face the English Attack with Black, so as you say it's a good idea to alternate answers.


Thank you for answering my question about 8. ...Bb4 that it is still be quite playable because like I said certain opp. don't do well against certain lines so I want to know those 3 lines talked  about 8...Be7, 9...h5 and 8...Bb4  I would like to be less predictable and that line would definintly help, thanks for the heads up and the threads!

Cool


« Last Edit: 09/11/12 at 21:57:17 by Michael Wilde »  

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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #9 - 09/11/12 at 13:03:04
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Hello,
Bb4 vs English-attack Taimanov is quite playable but you must avoid being caught in a timely a3 Bb4-e7 Be3-f4 d6 sequence resulting in a poor scheveningen.
This thread had some discussion on this, as well as great analysis on the soon-to-become Brazilian Taimanov : http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1301377895/0
You will often face the English Attack with Black, so as you say it's a good idea to alternate answers.
  
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Michael Wilde
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #8 - 09/10/12 at 22:13:58
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/10/12 at 22:06:42:
Do you have the first or second edition of The Safest Sicilian?  Because I'd say that the 1st is out of date (though I don't own the 2nd).



I have the Second edition, which I bought after one of your suggestions, that if I played the Taimanov I would probably want both books.  Which I am glad I did, giving me more options against the Maroczy Bind and also the Queen Exchange line where Emms covers 13. ...Kf8 and Delchev covers 13. ...Be5.  Very happy that I got it to have more options in different positions, so thanks for that!  I wasn't planning to buy the book for the English Chapters but became interested in the 8. ...Bb4 move against the English, as another way to play against it.   And breifly looking through the English chapter it looks like he made some changes and alternatives like for insatnce covering 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 the main line if I remember correctly and also covering 9. ...0-0 as an alternative, of course all this is new to me!

Smiley




« Last Edit: 09/10/12 at 23:41:43 by Michael Wilde »  

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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #7 - 09/10/12 at 22:06:42
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Do you have the first or second edition of The Safest Sicilian?  Because I'd say that the 1st is out of date (though I don't own the 2nd).
  
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Michael Wilde
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #6 - 09/10/12 at 21:09:18
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Thanks...I do in fact subsribe to the open Siclian section, and will have to compare it with the book, just was wondering if anyone else was updating their rep. with The Safest Sicilian.  And what other Taimanov players opinions were about 8. ...Bb4 vs. 8. ...Be7 against the English Attack, as John Emms pointed out that he chose to cover 8. ...Be7 for 2 reasons, one being that the 8. ...Bb4 had come under some pressure latlely.

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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #5 - 09/10/12 at 08:21:05
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I can tell you a very good place to search which would involve a subsription to the sicillians sections of the main chesspublishing site Wink Otherwise databases of course.
  
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #4 - 09/09/12 at 20:39:19
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I have Emms fantanstic book on the Taimanov, and in it he coveres 8. ...Be7 and 9. ...h5 lines, in the Safest Sicilain Delchev covers 8. ...Bb4 which I must say is an attractive move, and different that most English set-ups.  Looking at chessgames.com  I see a lot of Grand Masters playing 8. ...Bb4, was just wondering if anyone else had the book and knows a couple places where the English coverage needed some updates.

I would really like to know all three ways to play aganst the English as to be less predictable and also sometimes a certain opp. does poorly against certain lines, and when that happens I want to know that line! 

Any help appreciated! the search continues...

Smiley
« Last Edit: 09/10/12 at 00:43:56 by Michael Wilde »  

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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #3 - 09/09/12 at 20:29:09
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gewgaw wrote on 09/09/12 at 15:28:09:
NIC yearbook 103 has the headline: Taimanov - black is under pressure.
I don´t have the book, but maybe there´s the answer to your question.
On amateur level Delchev´s book is probably enough for lifetime.


In that article I think it analyzed the Nge7 Taimanov. So not the one from Delchev.

Don't know anything about the current status vs the English attack though  Tongue
  
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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #2 - 09/09/12 at 20:19:58
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Thanks!

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Re: 8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
Reply #1 - 09/09/12 at 15:28:09
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NIC yearbook 103 has the headline: Taimanov - black is under pressure.
I don´t have the book, but maybe there´s the answer to your question.
On amateur level Delchev´s book is probably enough for lifetime.
  

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8....Bb4 against the English in the Taimanov
09/09/12 at 05:40:36
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I just recieved my copy of the Safest Siclian and was wondering about the English attack chapter, is it to out of date or are people still using this rep?  Thanks for any feedback!

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