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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5 (Read 14819 times)
fling
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #14 - 12/06/12 at 22:31:59
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tony37 wrote on 12/06/12 at 22:14:52:
fling wrote on 12/06/12 at 21:37:59:
I wouldn't discard the delayed version, even though I am not really sure what Black benefits from giving away a tempo to have the option of playing ...Bh7 instead of ...Bg6.

Black doesn't give away a tempo, he wins one, the question is: is the h-pawn better on h7 or on h6?
an advantage is that 11.h4 is less effective since h6 is a useful move against it


True, h6 and Bh4 cancel each other. Well, I see it might depend on what set-up you want. I thought of keeping the bishop on g6 and answering h4-h5 with ...Bf5. I didn't think (and still don't) the bishop should end up on h7. Your game kinda confirms that suspicion.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #13 - 12/06/12 at 22:14:52
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fling wrote on 12/06/12 at 21:37:59:
I wouldn't discard the delayed version, even though I am not really sure what Black benefits from giving away a tempo to have the option of playing ...Bh7 instead of ...Bg6.

Black doesn't give away a tempo, he wins one, the question is: is the h-pawn better on h7 or on h6?
an advantage is that 11.h4 is less effective since h6 is a useful move against it
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #12 - 12/06/12 at 21:37:59
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Nothing against you at all, I just think that since b4 is a threat, Black needs to meet it. One way is to play an early a5, and as Cox mentions, you actually play the knight to b6, and normally don't move it until White is not threatening Na4. And Black didn't seem to do much in terms of the standard plans.

I wouldn't discard the delayed version, even though I am not really sure what Black benefits from giving away a tempo to have the option of playing ...Bh7 instead of ...Bg6.
  
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tony37
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #11 - 12/06/12 at 21:31:12
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It certainly wasn't top level opposition, I just started playing correspondence chess
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #10 - 12/06/12 at 21:18:44
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Sorry, I just looked briefly at the game, I have certainly missed a lot of things. But at a quick glance it seem like Black didn't really play with a plan, or more correctly, at least not as Short has played the variation or how Cox describes some of the objectives for Black.

Black wants to have the knight on d6, not the bishop, right? And the bishop on h7, what is it doing there. Black should play ...h5 before White plays h5. Etc. I think Cox mentioned the game Sherbakov-Parker, Hastings 1994 as an example. It doesn't look anything like your game, tony.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #9 - 12/06/12 at 19:53:57
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tony37 wrote on 09/25/12 at 13:16:04:
Black can also look at the 'delayed Short variation' (I invented this name myself, I'm not aware of any coverage): 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Bf5 8.Qf3 Bg6 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.Qxf6 gxf6
Now 11.h4 doesn't work since black has the extra move h6, which is useful against h4. Luckily for white, h6 can also be a (small) weakness: if he plays Nf3-Nh4, followed by a later Bd3 (after Kd2 or O-O-O), the bishop on g6 is only protected once and black has to play Rg8. But it's certainly playable for black and may be objectively as good as the 'real' Short variation.

Someone played this delayed Short variation against me in a correspondence game, and I won. The key was to get in b4 somehow (which the engines won't tell you)

  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #8 - 09/25/12 at 14:52:59
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But maybe we shouldn't conclude too soon on the death of 6.Qc2, I'd like to know what PANFR has in mind after 10...Nh5 11.O-O-O (with possible f4 ideas)

edit: my proposed solution for black:
« Last Edit: 09/25/12 at 20:42:03 by tony37 »  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #7 - 09/25/12 at 13:16:04
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JEH wrote on 09/25/12 at 12:42:29:
PANFR wrote on 09/25/12 at 12:26:56:
I have posted in another thread a fine remedy for Black against the 6.Qc2 variation.


Which thread?

It's here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1331563108/69#69
6.Qc2 h6 7.Bh4 Be6 8.e3 Nbd7 9.Bd3 g5 10.Bg3 Nh5
It seems to put 6.Qc2 out of business as a try for an advantage.
Talking about the Short endgame, I've got the idea 10.h4 is the way to go for white

Black can also look at the 'delayed Short variation' (I invented this name myself, I'm not aware of any coverage): 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Bf5 8.Qf3 Bg6 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.Qxf6 gxf6
Now 11.h4 doesn't work since black has the extra move h6, which is useful against h4. Luckily for white, h6 can also be a (small) weakness: if he plays Nf3-Nh4, followed by a later Bd3 (after Kd2 or O-O-O), the bishop on g6 is only protected once and black has to play Rg8. But it's certainly playable for black and may be objectively as good as the 'real' Short variation.
Then there's also 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 Bf5 8.Qf3 Bh7 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.Qxf6 gxf6, but white can play a quick Bd3 here (after Rd1) and since these bishops generally shouldn't be exchanged, unless black's pawn structure is repaired, black has to play Bg6 anyway. But 11.Rd1 Bb4 may be playable (my analysis continues 12.Nge2 Nd7 13.Nf4 O-O-O 14.f3...)
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #6 - 09/25/12 at 12:42:29
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PANFR wrote on 09/25/12 at 12:26:56:
I have posted in another thread a fine remedy for Black against the 6.Qc2 variation.


Which thread?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #5 - 09/25/12 at 12:26:56
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I have posted in another thread a fine remedy for Black against the 6.Qc2 variation.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #4 - 09/16/12 at 15:35:14
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That's an interesting line. The pressure is definitly higher with queens on the board. The Gambit looks quite interesting as well but propably not sufficient to fight on equal terms.

I'll delve a big deeper into it and see if i can find something playable for black in that line Smiley

Until that i'll come back to my 5...c6 move-order with Nh5 against Qc2 and Bf5 against e3
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #3 - 09/16/12 at 13:11:21
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TalJechin wrote on 09/16/12 at 10:43:01:
....And if 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 Bf5 6.Bxf6 white inflicts doubled f-pawns without having had to exchange queens. ....

What TalJechin meant was played recently in this game:



While black are suffering after 6...Qf6 in this game (though achieved a draw):



Obviously it doesn't worth your tries..
John Watson in his last book "A Strategic Chess Opening Repertoire For White" from 2012, page 10 states the same: "One well-known repertoire book suggests
the idea 5... Bf5?!, to get to the position...." And so on..
Ha-ha!.. Buy this book! (..And everything John Watson wrote, if you can..)
So, stay focussed on other good lines instead!  Wink
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #2 - 09/16/12 at 10:45:04
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haha missed a move sorry Smiley

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bf5! of course Wink

Well i corrected the rest Smiley
Do you have any experience in that line? Or suggestions?
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
Reply #1 - 09/16/12 at 10:43:01
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It's a bit impossible to play ...Bf5 with the e6 pawn in place.  Smiley

And if 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 Bf5 6.Bxf6 white inflicts doubled f-pawns without having had to exchange queens.

You could investigate the Noteboom move order d5, e6, c6 instead, if white plays the Exchange then you get pretty much what you try to get here...
  
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QGD Exchange - accelerated Short variation 5...Bf5
09/16/12 at 10:24:59
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Hey Chesspub

i'm currently studying the QGD from black's point of view and am interested in Nigel Short's variation in the Exchange variation.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5

Here the Short variation runs like

5...c6 6.e3 Bf5!? 7.Qf3 Bg6 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qxf6 gxf6


As i almost couldn't find any advantage for white in the following ending i was curious whether black could actually "force" it by playing an accelerated version of it with

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bf5!?

The transposition is obvious 6.e3 c6 7.Qf3 and so on

The critical try to avoid it by any means should be then

6.Qb3!? Nc6!

and now

A)) 7.Qxb7?!

B)) 7.Bxf6

C)) 7.e3


A) 7.Qxb7?! Nb4!
A1) 8.0-0-0? Rb8 9.Qxa7 Qc8 10.Qa4+ c6 11.e4! Ra8! 12.Qb3 Nxe4 13.Re1 Be6! 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Rxe4 Be7 16.Rxe6! Qxe6 17.Qxe6 fxe6 18.Bd2 Rxa2 -/+  is propably white's best after long castle, which i find quite pleasent Tongue


A2) 8.Rc1!
8...Rb8! 9.Qxa7 Ra8 10.Qb7 Rb8!= forces the draw.

B) 7.Bxf6!? gxf6!? in order to stay in Short's line
(7...Qxf6!? 8.Nxd5N Qd6! 9.e3 Be6 10.Bc4 b5! 11.Nxc7+ Qxc7 12.Bxe6 Bb4+! 13.Ke2 fxe6 14.Qxe6+ Nd7 with unclear play but i think mutual chances) 8.e3 Bb4 9.Bb5 Qd6!?N with propably similar play. I think the structural damage gives black certain counterplay along the b and g files and should at least compensate

C) 7.e3 Na5!N

8.Qb4+ c6 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Qa4 Qb6 11.0-0-0 0-0-0
(10.Qe2!?)
with quite pleasent game for black in my opinion. Very similar to the main lines of the short variation



Can you tell me your opinion about this accelerated version of it and if you found something else that might be critical for this idea. It would be interesting if black could actually force it Smiley

looking forward seeing your suggestions

  
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