Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Avoiding early draws in the Marshall (Read 25160 times)
walkingterrapin
Junior Member
**
Offline


Why play the Colle when
you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 98
Location: NC
Joined: 07/04/10
Gender: Male
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #30 - 11/30/12 at 13:49:16
Post Tools
11.....Nf6 is a great move for tournament play.  Especially against g3, which it just flatly wins against.  Once you get past the moves of the Capa-Marshall game you can get in a quick Nf2 and if they take with the King it is also a won game.  After Qf3 the best white has is a draw with black often stripping away all the K-side pawn cover and playing on the open e file. 

Its an opening of plans and tactics, not cheap tricks.  The only "trick" that it does is removing white from his opening preparation. 

Also the game mentioned was played at a 3 minute time control.  And in those games after they play g3, the game is over for me because i know in a tournament setting they cant win.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 340
Joined: 05/15/08
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #29 - 11/29/12 at 07:51:36
Post Tools
walkingterrapin wrote on 11/08/12 at 17:41:50:
More players at club level underk 2k will play it.  It easy for white to win if black doesnt have a concrete plan.  And plus after the anti marshall a4, black just play b4, if white replies c3, then you are back in the marshall again. 

Here is a recent win with the 11....Nf6 marshall. 

[Event "ChessCube Game"]
[Site "www.chesscube.com"]
[Date "2012.11.08"]
[Round "-"]
[White "canstein@chesscube.com"]
[Black "owenhorses@chesscube.com"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2180"]
[BlackElo "2308"]
[ECO "C60"]
[Time "12:31:27"]
[TimeControl "300"]

1. e4  e5 2. Nf3  Nc6 3. Bb5  a6 4. Ba4  Nf6 5. O-O  Be7 6. Re1  b5 7. Bb3  O-O 8. c3  d5 9. exd5  Nxd5 10. Nxe5  Nxe5 11. Rxe5  Nf6 12. d4  Bd6 13. Re1  Ng4 14. g3  Nxh2 15. Qh5  Ng4 16. Bg5  Qd7 17. Nd2  Qf5 18. Ne4  Bb7 19. Bc2  g6 20. Qh4  Bxe4 21. Bxe4  Qxf2+ 22. Kh1  Bxg3 23. Qh3  Rae8 24. Rf1  Rxe4 25. Rxf2  Nxf2+ 26. Kg2  Nxh3 27. Kxh3   0-1


This game is filled with blunders. The most obvious is probably 19...g6??, when 20.Qxg4 wins. I'd never play 11...Nf6 in a tournament game. It's just a bad move and I wouldn't want to play openings knowing they're bad and just hoping for tricks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2012
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #28 - 11/09/12 at 14:14:33
Post Tools
He did say under 2000 which probably means people who've never thought about it. Not that they're at all likely to force a draw Wink

I don't know the theory there but isn't the idea after a4 b4 to use the c4 square via Nbd2 etc?

It does have to be said that there do seem to be an awful lot of 'Marshall like' lines about against the anti's. Even that thing against 8 h3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1663
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #27 - 11/09/12 at 12:45:11
Post Tools
Most Ruy Lopez books written from whites point of view actually suggets anti Marshalls and not Marshall proper so it would be a surprise for me if clubplayers actually would enter Marshall as white!

Also about anit Marshall with a4 met by b4 I have a small comment. While I have never studied Marshall and that particullary anti Marshall I specualte that a Marshall with these moves inserted allows white to quickly move the Bishop to the Kingside via c4 since black has lost control over that square. But that only speculation, otherwhite I see no point of a4.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
walkingterrapin
Junior Member
**
Offline


Why play the Colle when
you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 98
Location: NC
Joined: 07/04/10
Gender: Male
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #26 - 11/08/12 at 17:41:50
Post Tools
More players at club level underk 2k will play it.  It easy for white to win if black doesnt have a concrete plan.  And plus after the anti marshall a4, black just play b4, if white replies c3, then you are back in the marshall again. 

Here is a recent win with the 11....Nf6 marshall. 

[Event "ChessCube Game"]
[Site "www.chesscube.com"]
[Date "2012.11.08"]
[Round "-"]
[White "canstein@chesscube.com"]
[Black "owenhorses@chesscube.com"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2180"]
[BlackElo "2308"]
[ECO "C60"]
[Time "12:31:27"]
[TimeControl "300"]

1. e4  e5 2. Nf3  Nc6 3. Bb5  a6 4. Ba4  Nf6 5. O-O  Be7 6. Re1  b5 7. Bb3  O-O 8. c3  d5 9. exd5  Nxd5 10. Nxe5  Nxe5 11. Rxe5  Nf6 12. d4  Bd6 13. Re1  Ng4 14. g3  Nxh2 15. Qh5  Ng4 16. Bg5  Qd7 17. Nd2  Qf5 18. Ne4  Bb7 19. Bc2  g6 20. Qh4  Bxe4 21. Bxe4  Qxf2+ 22. Kh1  Bxg3 23. Qh3  Rae8 24. Rf1  Rxe4 25. Rxf2  Nxf2+ 26. Kg2  Nxh3 27. Kxh3   0-1
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2012
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #25 - 11/03/12 at 19:01:27
Post Tools
?? I suspect that you're massively overestimating your opponents level of preparation Smiley

Nearly everyone at club level takes one look at the Marshall proper sees a huge mass of theory likely yielding no advantage and so plays some anti Marshall to get a workable position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 340
Joined: 05/15/08
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #24 - 11/03/12 at 05:40:58
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 11/01/12 at 09:35:04:
Ummm, this is a forced draw at move 24! Not a threat with 1700's Smiley Were it on move 10 or something then maybe.

If you're 2400 vs 2200 then perhaps another matter if they've got time to prepare and motivation to force a draw, and it very likely is an issue if you're 2800 vs 2600.


Yes it's a 24 move line, but considering that almost everyone would know the first 19 moves easily, all they'd have to know is Ne4 and Rae1 a couple moves later if they want a draw as White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 340
Joined: 05/15/08
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #23 - 11/03/12 at 05:38:40
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 11/01/12 at 01:27:46:
How to avoid a draw if White plays for one is, quite simply and quite essentially, not a theoretical problem. The best theory can do is to show that Back is not worse. How to win is your business.

It is a fool's game to try to prove that Black somehow wins if White does not err. Black's wins where White emerges not worse from the opening must come not from books, but from the soul.


I never said I wanted to try to prove that Black somehow wins if White does not err, nor did I say I wasn't willing to play for equality as Black. All I said was I wanted to avoid early forced repetitions that White has at his disposal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
walkingterrapin
Junior Member
**
Offline


Why play the Colle when
you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 98
Location: NC
Joined: 07/04/10
Gender: Male
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #22 - 11/02/12 at 14:25:05
Post Tools
The best answer would be to mix up your Marshall repetoire, have some moves like 11......Nf6 in your arsenal.  That move offers black winning chances immediately after it is played, so many ways for white to go wrong there.

There are really no worries against the exchange anymore, just play dynamically, white will not be able to adjust.  Bg4 comes to mind, although Fischer had something special saved against it that we might never know about.  Any of the other standard moves are fine against the exchange. 

Those other openings you mentioned might server you well, but I think the Alekhine and the modern would give you unbalanced positions quicker than the marshall would at move 11 or 12.  In general the faster you unbalance the position the quicker you generate winning chances for yourself. 

walkingterrapin

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #21 - 11/02/12 at 12:38:46
Post Tools
Oh I fully agree.  I guess my main point was, since this problem is practical, there is no single answer.  It depends on you, your opponent, the air temperature in the playing hall, and so on and so forth.

I am sorry if I seemed obtusely to say that it wasn't useful to prepare ways to avoid repetitions.  Of course it's useful.  I do think though that the Marshall isn't the system to play if you can't afford the occasional theoretical draw against a well-prepared opponent.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3179
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #20 - 11/01/12 at 10:46:20
Post Tools
This specific draw is at move 24, but Markovich's point was a general one. And my general answer is: As a practical OTB player I'm more concerned with winning with Black against clearly lower-rated opponents than with whether I did everything right "theoretically".
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2012
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #19 - 11/01/12 at 09:35:04
Post Tools
Ummm, this is a forced draw at move 24! Not a threat with 1700's Smiley Were it on move 10 or something then maybe.

If you're 2400 vs 2200 then perhaps another matter if they've got time to prepare and motivation to force a draw, and it very likely is an issue if you're 2800 vs 2600.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3179
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #18 - 11/01/12 at 08:51:22
Post Tools
Of course, it's a practical problem. If I'm black against a 1700 player and I allow a three-fold repetition or an easily drawable ending, the thought that theoretically I did everything right doesn't help much.

The discussion here is more about how to prolong the game, forcing the opponent to make difficult decisions in the middlegame and endgame. To win a game of chess, we must give the opponent some chances to make mistakes!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #17 - 11/01/12 at 01:27:46
Post Tools
How to avoid a draw if White plays for one is, quite simply and quite essentially, not a theoretical problem. The best theory can do is to show that Back is not worse. How to win is your business.

It is a fool's game to try to prove that Black somehow wins if White does not err. Black's wins where White emerges not worse from the opening must come not from books, but from the soul.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2012
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #16 - 10/30/12 at 23:33:05
Post Tools
They're not equal endings though, they're endings that (eg) black can hold using the bishops to compensate for an extra pawn. Definetly 'two result' affairs if white is rational.

Still black was winning an awful lot of super GMs in the Marshall not that long ago, so it really isn't easy stuff. I'd play it and see if you have any practical problems with people draw bullying you.

I'd expect that you'll hardly ever see the Marshall itself anyway.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo