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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Avoiding early draws in the Marshall (Read 25898 times)
walkingterrapin
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #30 - 11/30/12 at 13:49:16
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11.....Nf6 is a great move for tournament play.  Especially against g3, which it just flatly wins against.  Once you get past the moves of the Capa-Marshall game you can get in a quick Nf2 and if they take with the King it is also a won game.  After Qf3 the best white has is a draw with black often stripping away all the K-side pawn cover and playing on the open e file. 

Its an opening of plans and tactics, not cheap tricks.  The only "trick" that it does is removing white from his opening preparation. 

Also the game mentioned was played at a 3 minute time control.  And in those games after they play g3, the game is over for me because i know in a tournament setting they cant win.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #29 - 11/29/12 at 07:51:36
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walkingterrapin wrote on 11/08/12 at 17:41:50:
More players at club level underk 2k will play it.  It easy for white to win if black doesnt have a concrete plan.  And plus after the anti marshall a4, black just play b4, if white replies c3, then you are back in the marshall again. 

Here is a recent win with the 11....Nf6 marshall. 

[Event "ChessCube Game"]
[Site "www.chesscube.com"]
[Date "2012.11.08"]
[Round "-"]
[White "canstein@chesscube.com"]
[Black "owenhorses@chesscube.com"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2180"]
[BlackElo "2308"]
[ECO "C60"]
[Time "12:31:27"]
[TimeControl "300"]

1. e4  e5 2. Nf3  Nc6 3. Bb5  a6 4. Ba4  Nf6 5. O-O  Be7 6. Re1  b5 7. Bb3  O-O 8. c3  d5 9. exd5  Nxd5 10. Nxe5  Nxe5 11. Rxe5  Nf6 12. d4  Bd6 13. Re1  Ng4 14. g3  Nxh2 15. Qh5  Ng4 16. Bg5  Qd7 17. Nd2  Qf5 18. Ne4  Bb7 19. Bc2  g6 20. Qh4  Bxe4 21. Bxe4  Qxf2+ 22. Kh1  Bxg3 23. Qh3  Rae8 24. Rf1  Rxe4 25. Rxf2  Nxf2+ 26. Kg2  Nxh3 27. Kxh3   0-1


This game is filled with blunders. The most obvious is probably 19...g6??, when 20.Qxg4 wins. I'd never play 11...Nf6 in a tournament game. It's just a bad move and I wouldn't want to play openings knowing they're bad and just hoping for tricks.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #28 - 11/09/12 at 14:14:33
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He did say under 2000 which probably means people who've never thought about it. Not that they're at all likely to force a draw Wink

I don't know the theory there but isn't the idea after a4 b4 to use the c4 square via Nbd2 etc?

It does have to be said that there do seem to be an awful lot of 'Marshall like' lines about against the anti's. Even that thing against 8 h3.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #27 - 11/09/12 at 12:45:11
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Most Ruy Lopez books written from whites point of view actually suggets anti Marshalls and not Marshall proper so it would be a surprise for me if clubplayers actually would enter Marshall as white!

Also about anit Marshall with a4 met by b4 I have a small comment. While I have never studied Marshall and that particullary anti Marshall I specualte that a Marshall with these moves inserted allows white to quickly move the Bishop to the Kingside via c4 since black has lost control over that square. But that only speculation, otherwhite I see no point of a4.
  
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walkingterrapin
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #26 - 11/08/12 at 17:41:50
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More players at club level underk 2k will play it.  It easy for white to win if black doesnt have a concrete plan.  And plus after the anti marshall a4, black just play b4, if white replies c3, then you are back in the marshall again. 

Here is a recent win with the 11....Nf6 marshall. 

[Event "ChessCube Game"]
[Site "www.chesscube.com"]
[Date "2012.11.08"]
[Round "-"]
[White "canstein@chesscube.com"]
[Black "owenhorses@chesscube.com"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2180"]
[BlackElo "2308"]
[ECO "C60"]
[Time "12:31:27"]
[TimeControl "300"]

1. e4  e5 2. Nf3  Nc6 3. Bb5  a6 4. Ba4  Nf6 5. O-O  Be7 6. Re1  b5 7. Bb3  O-O 8. c3  d5 9. exd5  Nxd5 10. Nxe5  Nxe5 11. Rxe5  Nf6 12. d4  Bd6 13. Re1  Ng4 14. g3  Nxh2 15. Qh5  Ng4 16. Bg5  Qd7 17. Nd2  Qf5 18. Ne4  Bb7 19. Bc2  g6 20. Qh4  Bxe4 21. Bxe4  Qxf2+ 22. Kh1  Bxg3 23. Qh3  Rae8 24. Rf1  Rxe4 25. Rxf2  Nxf2+ 26. Kg2  Nxh3 27. Kxh3   0-1
  
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MartinC
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #25 - 11/03/12 at 19:01:27
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?? I suspect that you're massively overestimating your opponents level of preparation Smiley

Nearly everyone at club level takes one look at the Marshall proper sees a huge mass of theory likely yielding no advantage and so plays some anti Marshall to get a workable position.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #24 - 11/03/12 at 05:40:58
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MartinC wrote on 11/01/12 at 09:35:04:
Ummm, this is a forced draw at move 24! Not a threat with 1700's Smiley Were it on move 10 or something then maybe.

If you're 2400 vs 2200 then perhaps another matter if they've got time to prepare and motivation to force a draw, and it very likely is an issue if you're 2800 vs 2600.


Yes it's a 24 move line, but considering that almost everyone would know the first 19 moves easily, all they'd have to know is Ne4 and Rae1 a couple moves later if they want a draw as White.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #23 - 11/03/12 at 05:38:40
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Markovich wrote on 11/01/12 at 01:27:46:
How to avoid a draw if White plays for one is, quite simply and quite essentially, not a theoretical problem. The best theory can do is to show that Back is not worse. How to win is your business.

It is a fool's game to try to prove that Black somehow wins if White does not err. Black's wins where White emerges not worse from the opening must come not from books, but from the soul.


I never said I wanted to try to prove that Black somehow wins if White does not err, nor did I say I wasn't willing to play for equality as Black. All I said was I wanted to avoid early forced repetitions that White has at his disposal.
  
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walkingterrapin
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #22 - 11/02/12 at 14:25:05
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The best answer would be to mix up your Marshall repetoire, have some moves like 11......Nf6 in your arsenal.  That move offers black winning chances immediately after it is played, so many ways for white to go wrong there.

There are really no worries against the exchange anymore, just play dynamically, white will not be able to adjust.  Bg4 comes to mind, although Fischer had something special saved against it that we might never know about.  Any of the other standard moves are fine against the exchange. 

Those other openings you mentioned might server you well, but I think the Alekhine and the modern would give you unbalanced positions quicker than the marshall would at move 11 or 12.  In general the faster you unbalance the position the quicker you generate winning chances for yourself. 

walkingterrapin

  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #21 - 11/02/12 at 12:38:46
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Oh I fully agree.  I guess my main point was, since this problem is practical, there is no single answer.  It depends on you, your opponent, the air temperature in the playing hall, and so on and so forth.

I am sorry if I seemed obtusely to say that it wasn't useful to prepare ways to avoid repetitions.  Of course it's useful.  I do think though that the Marshall isn't the system to play if you can't afford the occasional theoretical draw against a well-prepared opponent.
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #20 - 11/01/12 at 10:46:20
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This specific draw is at move 24, but Markovich's point was a general one. And my general answer is: As a practical OTB player I'm more concerned with winning with Black against clearly lower-rated opponents than with whether I did everything right "theoretically".
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #19 - 11/01/12 at 09:35:04
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Ummm, this is a forced draw at move 24! Not a threat with 1700's Smiley Were it on move 10 or something then maybe.

If you're 2400 vs 2200 then perhaps another matter if they've got time to prepare and motivation to force a draw, and it very likely is an issue if you're 2800 vs 2600.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #18 - 11/01/12 at 08:51:22
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Of course, it's a practical problem. If I'm black against a 1700 player and I allow a three-fold repetition or an easily drawable ending, the thought that theoretically I did everything right doesn't help much.

The discussion here is more about how to prolong the game, forcing the opponent to make difficult decisions in the middlegame and endgame. To win a game of chess, we must give the opponent some chances to make mistakes!
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #17 - 11/01/12 at 01:27:46
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How to avoid a draw if White plays for one is, quite simply and quite essentially, not a theoretical problem. The best theory can do is to show that Back is not worse. How to win is your business.

It is a fool's game to try to prove that Black somehow wins if White does not err. Black's wins where White emerges not worse from the opening must come not from books, but from the soul.
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #16 - 10/30/12 at 23:33:05
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They're not equal endings though, they're endings that (eg) black can hold using the bishops to compensate for an extra pawn. Definetly 'two result' affairs if white is rational.

Still black was winning an awful lot of super GMs in the Marshall not that long ago, so it really isn't easy stuff. I'd play it and see if you have any practical problems with people draw bullying you.

I'd expect that you'll hardly ever see the Marshall itself anyway.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #15 - 10/30/12 at 22:55:30
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Stigma wrote on 10/29/12 at 23:57:58:
MartinC wrote on 10/29/12 at 22:26:50:
Why on earth would a rational white player spend their time memorising a forced drawing line? Or use one?

It may happen in the odd, very rare, critical game for tournaments etc. In that case you can switch. If it happens elsewhere, smile, accept the complement and ask white why he's wasting his own time.

Not at all odd or rare. This situation arises all the time in international Swiss tournaments, especially in the early rounds: The higher-rated player absolutely has to win to keep up with his likely competitors for the money prizes. The much lower-rated opponent would love to score an upset (even if only a draw) and maybe escape the boring "ping-pong effect" of playing alternately much stronger and much weaker players for several rounds.

In these games playing strength usually matters much more than color, and a drawing line with White can be very handy.

@BobbyDigital: Out of interest, you must have a repertoire against White's alternatives to the main line Ruy Lopez too... how do you go about getting winning chances in the 4 Knights (Spanish and Scotch) and the Exchange Ruy?


Well I'm not necessarily looking to get winning chances in the Spanish 4 Knights, Scotch 4 Knights, or exchange Ruy. I'm happy playing an equal position. I just don't like early 3-fold repetitions in the Marshall. I wouldn't mind playing an equal Marshall endgame because there are chances to outplay your opponent.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #14 - 10/30/12 at 22:48:41
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ErictheRed wrote on 10/29/12 at 21:45:14:
Bobby, you might want a back-up defense for must-win situations, like the Pirc, Alekhine's, 1...g6, Philidor's, heck even plenty of offbeat Spanish lines like 3...Nge7, the New Archangel, whatever.  I think you expect too much from one opening. 

If you love the Marshall, study and play it, but if you are in a must-win situation and you fear your opponent's preparation, play another line for that game.  Surely you have some other defense to 1.e4 that you wouldn't mind playing on occasion??


Sure, I also play the Najdorf and Breyer. I just wanted to see if there were ways to avoid the early 3-fold repetition lines in the Marshall.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #13 - 10/30/12 at 13:21:59
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I don't play that much team chess, but maybe it's different? There's often a (stated or unstated) plan of winning with White and drawing with Black to win the match overall, even when the opponents are much weaker.

Besides, playing a quick draw when you're either White or the clearly stronger player can "backfire" when your teammates realize that your game, if played out, might have saved or won the match! That's a good reason to play a real game.
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #12 - 10/30/12 at 13:09:41
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I've played in a team with various people ranging up to ~2300 routinely against weaker people and never really seen it tried against anyone Smiley

Maybe its a UK thing? The general levels of preparation aren't high at all. So even people who decide to set out to try and draw (quite rare) do it by playing 'dull' stuff rather than forced draws.

I'm not aware that anyone on the team really tries to avoid it.

Trying to play quite safely you do definetly see although as you say it really isn't that easy to pull off.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #11 - 10/30/12 at 11:25:56
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Well, the reason you don't see it more is because the stronger players with Black are very much aware of the problem, follow EricthRed's advice, and play something else in those unbalanced matchups! Smiley

I'm a bit below 2200 myself, so in serious tournaments I often find myself on the weaker side of this. I don't normally play the kind of sharp, critical theory that this "strategy" involves, but if I did I sure would make use of it. There's also the off-chance that the stronger player will try something a bit too risky to avoid the draw, and end up losing instead.

Playing safe lines is another way to do it, and I've tried this recently myself, using a Réti move order to draw a couple of opponents above 2400. But you need to be sure that strategy and endgames are not your weakest points to pull this off.

In local weekend tournaments I'm often on the other side, trying to win with Black against opponents rated anywhere from 1500 to 2100. So in fact you don't have to be super-strong for this to become an issue.
« Last Edit: 10/30/12 at 13:13:53 by Stigma »  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #10 - 10/30/12 at 09:21:36
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You have to be fairly seriously strong before you have that sort of problem in Swiss tournaments surely? FM strength maybe so that the people you 'scare' enough are organised enough to contemplate something like this.

Don't think I've ever seen it done in the UK. Fairly safe lines which let white play for two results, yes a bit. But they've got use vs weaker opponents too.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #9 - 10/30/12 at 03:25:47
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The Spanish Exchange shouldn't be a problem against a weaker opponent. Having the pair of Bishops is already an imbalance.
Against the Spanish Four Knights I used to rely on the Rubinstein Delayed: 4...Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nd4 6.Be2 d5 7.Nd3 Nxe4 (Fine) with interesting complications. Alas I don't trust 6.O-O O-O 7.Bc4 d6 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.Be2. So now I would rather prefer Marshall's 4...Bb4 5.O-O O-O 6.d3 d5 7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.Nxe5 Bxc3 9.bxc3 dxe4.
The Scottish Four Knights is a problem indeed for the overambitious player of the black pieces.
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #8 - 10/29/12 at 23:57:58
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MartinC wrote on 10/29/12 at 22:26:50:
Why on earth would a rational white player spend their time memorising a forced drawing line? Or use one?

It may happen in the odd, very rare, critical game for tournaments etc. In that case you can switch. If it happens elsewhere, smile, accept the complement and ask white why he's wasting his own time.

Not at all odd or rare. This situation arises all the time in international Swiss tournaments, especially in the early rounds: The higher-rated player absolutely has to win to keep up with his likely competitors for the money prizes. The much lower-rated opponent would love to score an upset (even if only a draw) and maybe escape the boring "ping-pong effect" of playing alternately much stronger and much weaker players for several rounds.

In these games playing strength usually matters much more than color, and a drawing line with White can be very handy.

@BobbyDigital: Out of interest, you must have a repertoire against White's alternatives to the main line Ruy Lopez too... how do you go about getting winning chances in the 4 Knights (Spanish and Scotch) and the Exchange Ruy?
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #7 - 10/29/12 at 22:26:50
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Why on earth would a rational white player spend their time memorising a forced drawing line? Or use one?

It may happen in the odd, very rare, critical game for tournaments etc. In that case you can switch. If it happens elsewhere, smile, accept the complement and ask white why he's wasting his own time.

Meanwhile the Marshall gives lots of winning chances vs ambitious white play. In practice of course you'll get lots and lots and lots of anti Marshalls.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #6 - 10/29/12 at 21:45:14
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Bobby, you might want a back-up defense for must-win situations, like the Pirc, Alekhine's, 1...g6, Philidor's, heck even plenty of offbeat Spanish lines like 3...Nge7, the New Archangel, whatever.  I think you expect too much from one opening. 

If you love the Marshall, study and play it, but if you are in a must-win situation and you fear your opponent's preparation, play another line for that game.  Surely you have some other defense to 1.e4 that you wouldn't mind playing on occasion??
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #5 - 10/29/12 at 20:26:27
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MartinC wrote on 10/29/12 at 09:26:03:
In general worrying about white forcing a draw is a very sillly exercise Smiley If they do accept the complement, make a biting remark and move on.

If you're routinely playing notably weaker players who are organised enough to do this sort of thing then this might drag but you'll be awfully good then.

The pawn down two bishop endings would I think be worse as you do at least have to show some modest levels of accuracy to draw those.


Why is it silly to worry about White forcing a draw if you want to win as black? All White has to know is a few lines that lead to a forced draw if he wants it. They're very easy to memorize.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #4 - 10/29/12 at 09:26:03
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In general worrying about white forcing a draw is a very sillly exercise Smiley If they do accept the complement, make a biting remark and move on.

If you're routinely playing notably weaker players who are organised enough to do this sort of thing then this might drag but you'll be awfully good then.

The pawn down two bishop endings would I think be worse as you do at least have to show some modest levels of accuracy to draw those.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #3 - 10/29/12 at 05:56:02
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Markovich wrote on 10/27/12 at 01:33:50:
I would not advise taking up the Marshall to anyone unwilling to accept the occasional theoretical draw.

In any case, what to do if White wants to draw is a practical problem, not a theoretical one.


I don't mind playing a drawish position in the Marshall. I just don't like the early forced draws by repetition that White has at his disposal.
  
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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #2 - 10/27/12 at 01:33:50
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I would not advise taking up the Marshall to anyone unwilling to accept the occasional theoretical draw.

In any case, what to do if White wants to draw is a practical problem, not a theoretical one.
  

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Re: Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
Reply #1 - 10/26/12 at 12:22:15
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Of course, black has other options along this line - such as 16...Kh8!? with the 17...f5 idea, some computer (waiting) moves as 18...Bc7!? for example and so on..  Wink
  
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Avoiding early draws in the Marshall
10/26/12 at 09:53:44
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The only thing that puts me off the Marshall is that it seems White can draw easily if he wants. For instance, in this line:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3
d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.
Be3 Bg4 16. Qd3 Rae8 17. Nd2 Qh5 18. a4 Re6 19. axb5 axb5 20. Ne4 Bf5 21. Bd2 Rxe4 22. Rxe4
Nf6 23. f3 Qg6 24. Rae1 and it seems black has nothing better than 24...Bxg3 leading to a perpetual. Does Black have any other options in this main line with Re6 and Qh5?

  
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