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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4! (Read 22806 times)
Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #39 - 01/21/13 at 16:04:01
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Thanks. Cheesy
  
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Vass
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #38 - 01/20/13 at 08:12:40
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As I already said, it depends on your level of playing OTB chess.

But the books I can recommend to anyone are:

Nimzowitsch, Aron - My System
Watson, John - Secrets Of Modern Chess Strategy
Baburin, Alexander - Winning Pawn Structures
Sokolov, Ivan - Winning Chess Middlegames, An Essential Guide To Pawn Structures
Bronstein, David - Zurich International Chess Tournament 1953
Nunn, John - Understanding Chess Middlegames

...as well as Artur Yusupov's "Beyond The Basics" and Mark Dvoretsky's "School Of Chess Excellence" series.
Wink
  
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Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #37 - 01/20/13 at 02:31:15
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Vass wrote on 01/19/13 at 13:42:12:
MartinC wrote on 01/19/13 at 11:50:19:
...
Computers have always had something of a blind spot about these sorts of trapped pieces. And of course are known not to do so well early in the game Smiley

MartinC, that's what I meant when I said that operating chess engines is not enough to play a good correspondence chess.
Master Om, here on this forum there are guys who can help you better than me with all the necessary books. The more the better, of course, but there is a good order in this matter which depends on the level of your OTB chess.  Wink


Well Vass, I said you before, when I play I seek to check MY LINES rather the engine suggested lines. Many times It cost me a game though Sad.
Regarding help Lets start wid you ? Any Suggestion friend!! Specially on middle game planning ?
  
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Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #36 - 01/20/13 at 02:29:03
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MartinC wrote on 01/19/13 at 11:50:19:
Yes those looked like good, human moves Smiley

It was white's play which seemed rather comptuerish. (And he was seemingly by his own admission experimenting a bit.).

In particular a human would have been very reluctant to take on that pawn structure unless they were sure they were going to be able to free themselves with f4. Well just maybe h4,Bh3 instead.

If white can't do that then he may as well resign Smiley So indeed once you were theatening f4 you'd likely have seen quite drastic measures against it.

Computers have always had something of a blind spot about these sorts of trapped pieces. And of course are known not to do so well early in the game Smiley


Very True. Thats why Human Interaction so necessary. I never trust on analysis of an unaided engine.
  
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Vass
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #35 - 01/19/13 at 13:42:12
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MartinC wrote on 01/19/13 at 11:50:19:
...
Computers have always had something of a blind spot about these sorts of trapped pieces. And of course are known not to do so well early in the game Smiley

MartinC, that's what I meant when I said that operating chess engines is not enough to play a good correspondence chess.
Master Om, here on this forum there are guys who can help you better than me with all the necessary books. The more the better, of course, but there is a good order in this matter which depends on the level of your OTB chess.  Wink
  
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MartinC
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #34 - 01/19/13 at 11:50:19
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Yes those looked like good, human moves Smiley

It was white's play which seemed rather comptuerish. (And he was seemingly by his own admission experimenting a bit.).

In particular a human would have been very reluctant to take on that pawn structure unless they were sure they were going to be able to free themselves with f4. Well just maybe h4,Bh3 instead.

If white can't do that then he may as well resign Smiley So indeed once you were theatening f4 you'd likely have seen quite drastic measures against it.

Computers have always had something of a blind spot about these sorts of trapped pieces. And of course are known not to do so well early in the game Smiley
  
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Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #33 - 01/19/13 at 00:36:57
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Vass wrote on 01/18/13 at 17:28:15:
Well, I didn't want to start a war or something..
And I didn't want to spoil this topic, too..
All I wanted was to tell you why Bibs reacted like this.
It seems he, as well as I, didn't like your assessment of the position from this game of yours.
Please, don't take it as offence! I won't give you advice anymore.
And even if the engines are better than humans in the middle game I'll continue to learn how to play it, study plans and pawn structures.
Poor Carlsen, if he doesn't know how to operate with an engine!
Roll Eyes

i didn't too want a war. I know what u n bibs sayin. I agree we need to increase our chess knowledge. But its other side of the coin. You need to be master in both. regarding the assessment of the game I neither expected g3 nor h3. I dont like pawn moves in opening. But after calculating further I found white can open up the position but with slight disadvantage but not winnable for black. So I had to stop those moves before he can play. Thats the reason of playing f5-f4 and h5! (prophylaxis). If white plays those he activates the bishops with attack!!.
I have taken your advice though of learning and reading books of chess as there is no harm in learning(if i return to OTB in future). What book you suggest to start with planning?  Smiley
  
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Vass
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #32 - 01/18/13 at 17:28:15
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Well, I didn't want to start a war or something..
And I didn't want to spoil this topic, too..
All I wanted was to tell you why Bibs reacted like this.
It seems he, as well as I, didn't like your assessment of the position from this game of yours.
Please, don't take it as offence! I won't give you advice anymore.
And even if the engines are better than humans in the middle game I'll continue to learn how to play it, study plans and pawn structures.
Poor Carlsen, if he doesn't know how to operate with an engine!
Roll Eyes
  
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Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #31 - 01/18/13 at 16:50:25
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Vass wrote on 01/18/13 at 08:01:51:
An advice as a friend: if you are really addicted to the correspondence chess, do not waste your time playing some games against some anonymous players which you accidentally meet through various chess forums! Just start working over your overall chess knowledge (reading books and so on..) while taking an account in ICCF and start playing for real! With your multi-core computer you can easily reach a good rating (say, 2250 ICCF), which would give you a chance to play against some really strong correspondence chess players. In the meantime, if you start to work on your chess understanding, your chess knowledge will raise to some level which will help you to progress more and more.


I am already into ICCF and AICCF.
See my games here and here.
Tell me if i am an operator only  Roll Eyes
  
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Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #30 - 01/18/13 at 16:32:03
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Vass wrote on 01/18/13 at 08:01:51:
Hi, Master Om!
First we "met" each other at chess.com, then here and as well as some computer forums, too..
I respect your chess addiction, as well as your addiction to the computer chess.
But, let me say something! Take it as a good advice from a friend!
What Bibs was trying to say is that computer chess engines are not all in chess. First, a player has to learn some chess basics. It's absolutely necessary to step on the firm ground. Then you'll be able to use your chess knowledge when corresponding with the powerful "calculators" such as Houdini, Rybka and alike. I use this word, because all these engines are just calculators and they cannot replace in full the absence of chess understanding. They don't make plans - they just calculate moves - kind of type...if this - then that. Ok, you may say they calculate in depth 35-36 plys and no plans are needed. Wrong, completely wrong! Plans are always needed in chess...and the calculators are the ones that can help you to achieve your plans, not the opposite.
I for one, read Nimzo's "My System" book in 1978 (and many, many books as well) and my chess playing before and after that was completely different. Many years after, my first engine was Fritz 5.32 version and I was able to observe its weaknesses very easy because of my chess knowledge I had acquired. Ok, you can say that Houdini or another modern chess engine can beat Carlsen very easy. Yes, maybe, but believe me, if Carlsen could have a much weaker engine from time to time just to calculate some tactics while playing against Houdini, I doubt if Houdini can even make 33% against him in any possible match between them!
By the way, I see you are deep into the correspondence chess.. It's my obsession, too.  Wink
I have some very good relationship with some of the best correspondence chess players in the world - mostly Russians (I speak Russian language fluently) as well as the best Bulgarian correspondence chess players, too. We often communicate in some closed forums sharing some knowledge and experience to each other. Anyway, I can guarantee you, that if you don't acquire at least the basic chess principles, even with your multi, multi-core computer you won't achieve more than 2400 ICCF ELO. Such players we use to call them "operators". Sometimes operators can even win against a strong player, but that will be an exception to the common rule. And not a slightest chance for an operator to even reach some higher levels!  Roll Eyes
An advice as a friend: if you are really addicted to the correspondence chess, do not waste your time playing some games against some anonymous players which you accidentally meet through various chess forums! Just start working over your overall chess knowledge (reading books and so on..) while taking an account in ICCF and start playing for real! With your multi-core computer you can easily reach a good rating (say, 2250 ICCF), which would give you a chance to play against some really strong correspondence chess players. In the meantime, if you start to work on your chess understanding, your chess knowledge will raise to some level which will help you to progress more and more..
That's all I have to say! And please, don't take offense on Bibs or me, or whoever which wastes time to advise you to teach!  Smiley



First I don't recall you in chess.com. Yes I know you in immortal chess forum as I am one of the oldest guy there.
Well It is not advised to advise someone who knows about something already. It won't work.

What Bibs was trying to say is that computer chess engines are not all in chess. First, a player has to learn some chess basics. It's absolutely necessary to step on the firm ground. Then you'll be able to use your chess knowledge when corresponding with the powerful "calculators" such as Houdini, Rybka and alike. I use this word, because all these engines are just calculators and they cannot replace in full the absence of chess understanding. They don't make plans - they just calculate moves - kind of type...if this - then that. Ok, you may say they calculate in depth 35-36 plys and no plans are needed. Wrong, completely wrong! Plans are always needed in chess...and the calculators are the ones that can help you to achieve your plans, not the opposite.

I myself play OTB in open tournaments. Due to time constraint I shifted from OTB to CC since 5 Years. So I am not a computer chess ignorant. As I have OTB skills I have lots of books and I still study but I study only endgames as I feel Its where engines fail (If they do and they do). In opening no engines are optimized for it for the piece probability. They rule in Middle game. Yes They are calculators. But they are better than Humans as far as Tactics is concerned. To be able to play in CC a more Computer knowledge is required than Chess Knowledge. Thats what rules in Freestyle or advanced chess. Humans use it to assist the game not to use it to copy paste. A good cc player does that -  steer the game to a position where engines fail (or rule if he has better hardware.)

Ok, you can say that Houdini or another modern chess engine can beat Carlsen very easy. Yes, maybe, but believe me, if Carlsen could have a much weaker engine from time to time just to calculate some tactics while playing against Houdini, I doubt if Houdini can even make 33% against him in any possible match between them!

Absolutely wrong. If Carlsen doesnot know how to operate a program his GM skills are waste. He wont go more than 5% wins. A better software + Hardware + Computer operating skills rule against Super GM and computer program Noob. Seems you have no idea what you are talking.
Let Me give an example. Have you heard of ZackS ? two amateurs(in chess) winning 1st freestyle chess tour involving GMs and IMs ?
Then read here.
I dont deny that chess knowledge helps but computer chess knowledge is important too. I there still read endgame books of Averbakh and Dvroetsky.
Gone are the days when human exeled against computers. This is now an necessary evil in CC.
  
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Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #29 - 01/18/13 at 15:12:11
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Bibs wrote on 01/18/13 at 02:30:09:
Are PCs really used in this way? I despair.
Sigh.
Point forward and press? Houdini is an analytical engine.
Not a bazooka. This isn't the truck blowing up scene from the end of Beverley Hills Cop.
I give up.
Well, good luck with the 'analysis'. I depart these shores.



First of all Yes Houdini is an Analysis engine and I do not use only  Houdini. My analysis methods are a bit different. I tend to find what I want Rather what Engine Suggests as correct. This thing cost me few games too in my CC career. Well last time I analysed and posted analysis on fyfe Gambit on that thread. See it and tell me.
  
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Vass
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #28 - 01/18/13 at 08:01:51
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Hi, Master Om!
First we "met" each other at chess.com, then here and as well as some computer forums, too..
I respect your chess addiction, as well as your addiction to the computer chess.
But, let me say something! Take it as a good advice from a friend!
What Bibs was trying to say is that computer chess engines are not all in chess. First, a player has to learn some chess basics. It's absolutely necessary to step on the firm ground. Then you'll be able to use your chess knowledge when corresponding with the powerful "calculators" such as Houdini, Rybka and alike. I use this word, because all these engines are just calculators and they cannot replace in full the absence of chess understanding. They don't make plans - they just calculate moves - kind of type...if this - then that. Ok, you may say they calculate in depth 35-36 plys and no plans are needed. Wrong, completely wrong! Plans are always needed in chess...and the calculators are the ones that can help you to achieve your plans, not the opposite.
I for one, read Nimzo's "My System" book in 1978 (and many, many books as well) and my chess playing before and after that was completely different. Many years after, my first engine was Fritz 5.32 version and I was able to observe its weaknesses very easy because of my chess knowledge I had acquired. Ok, you can say that Houdini or another modern chess engine can beat Carlsen very easy. Yes, maybe, but believe me, if Carlsen could have a much weaker engine from time to time just to calculate some tactics while playing against Houdini, I doubt if Houdini can even make 33% against him in any possible match between them!
By the way, I see you are deep into the correspondence chess.. It's my obsession, too.  Wink
I have some very good relationship with some of the best correspondence chess players in the world - mostly Russians (I speak Russian language fluently) as well as the best Bulgarian correspondence chess players, too. We often communicate in some closed forums sharing some knowledge and experience to each other. Anyway, I can guarantee you, that if you don't acquire at least the basic chess principles, even with your multi, multi-core computer you won't achieve more than 2400 ICCF ELO. Such players we use to call them "operators". Sometimes operators can even win against a strong player, but that will be an exception to the common rule. And not a slightest chance for an operator to even reach some higher levels!  Roll Eyes
An advice as a friend: if you are really addicted to the correspondence chess, do not waste your time playing some games against some anonymous players which you accidentally meet through various chess forums! Just start working over your overall chess knowledge (reading books and so on..) while taking an account in ICCF and start playing for real! With your multi-core computer you can easily reach a good rating (say, 2250 ICCF), which would give you a chance to play against some really strong correspondence chess players. In the meantime, if you start to work on your chess understanding, your chess knowledge will raise to some level which will help you to progress more and more..
That's all I have to say! And please, don't take offense on Bibs or me, or whoever which wastes time to advise you to teach!  Smiley
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #27 - 01/18/13 at 07:02:33
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Bibs wrote on 01/18/13 at 02:30:09:
Are PCs really used in this way? I despair.
Sigh.
Point forward and press? Houdini is an analytical engine.
Not a bazooka. This isn't the truck blowing up scene from the end of Beverley Hills Cop.
I give up.
Well, good luck with the 'analysis'. I depart these shores.


I come with you  Grin
  
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Bibs
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #26 - 01/18/13 at 02:30:09
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Are PCs really used in this way? I despair.
Sigh.
Point forward and press? Houdini is an analytical engine.
Not a bazooka. This isn't the truck blowing up scene from the end of Beverley Hills Cop.
I give up.
Well, good luck with the 'analysis'. I depart these shores.

  
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Master Om
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Re: 1.Nf3 d5! 2.c4?! d4!
Reply #25 - 01/18/13 at 01:10:24
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Bibs wrote on 01/17/13 at 22:01:18:
Master Om wrote on 01/17/13 at 13:59:32:
Bibs wrote on 01/17/13 at 12:38:24:
Agree, h3 just seems terrible.


May be. But my analysis didnot find any fault. The real good move was h5!!. It was not found by any top 5 engine I used.


I do presume you are joking.
'Analysis'?!
I wish to be helpful below. It is meant to be frank, not unkind, I earnestly assure.
As kylemeister has suggested elsewhere I think, it really is necessary for many people here to:
1) switch off the PCs
2) put the opening books away
and...
3) get out the Chernev, Reinfeld books. Study some basic chess.


Well Yes!!, Analysis. I use All 5 engines on my two PC (8+6 cores) on all possible positions on single core programs including brainware Wink. Although h3 is unsound, white had sufficient resources to activate the two bishops and my opponenet missed it. That was the Idea off f4, h5.
  
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