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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005) (Read 11925 times)
kylemeister
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #21 - 01/27/25 at 15:50:06
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/27/25 at 07:09:37:
Maybe that's another case of do as the GM says and not as the GM does.  Smiley We can certainly find openings in Nunn's repertoire which seem to "hang entirely on specific tactical points". I'm thinking in particular of the white side of the Sozin Sicilian, black side of the Austrian Pirc, Marshall Attack, and Poisoned Pawn Najdorf. Those are just off the top of my head.

Reminds me of noticing that in the 2023 World Senior Team Ch he played a line of the Velimirovic which he played in the '80s. I wonder what he will play this time (the tournament is next month).
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #20 - 01/27/25 at 13:34:56
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/27/25 at 07:09:37:
Maybe that's another case of do as the GM says and not as the GM does.  Smiley We can certainly find openings in Nunn's repertoire which seem to "hang entirely on specific tactical points". I'm thinking in particular of the white side of the Sozin Sicilian, black side of the Austrian Pirc, Marshall Attack, and Poisoned Pawn Najdorf. Those are just off the top of my head.

I'm not going to defend the Latvian Gambit, but is the Tango really in the same category? Every black opening, even a sound one, has at least one "critical" line which the black player needs to have worked out.


I think the difference is between a positionally well-founded opening that requires tactical resources to navigate in order to affirm your positional trumps, and an opening that's basically just cheapos (positional and tactical). I'd put the Tango in the latter category, based on the general grotty positions you can expect after normal moves.
  

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MartinC
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #19 - 01/27/25 at 09:55:22
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What would worry me slightly as a black player - not automatically hugely  - is that 5 e4 is only about the 5 rated white move on move 5. And everything way down the list is rated as nice for white.
(Ok it's only move 5, and they're mostly waiting moves aiming at inducing d6 or a useful h4,h5 so it's not so awful.).

The top ranked line doesn't look amazing fun, cf:
5 Nf3 ^ Ng6 6 h4 h5 then 7 Bg5 has a ~70% database score and SF likes 7 a3 even more.

Then if 7.. Bc5 white can either go 8 Bg5 with an annoying pin or 8 b4 with no Bd4 tricks attached for black. You can go 8.. Be7 and try to fight but that's a lot of free space.

After 5 e4 and 6 a3, I'd be half tempted by 6.. h5!? for the sheer amusement value. Often h4 and a5 as quick follow ups. Slightly risky of course but you're locking in some potentially very useful pluses there.

SF thinks it's about as good as anything else Smiley
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #18 - 01/27/25 at 07:09:37
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Maybe that's another case of do as the GM says and not as the GM does.  Smiley We can certainly find openings in Nunn's repertoire which seem to "hang entirely on specific tactical points". I'm thinking in particular of the white side of the Sozin Sicilian, black side of the Austrian Pirc, Marshall Attack, and Poisoned Pawn Najdorf. Those are just off the top of my head.

I'm not going to defend the Latvian Gambit, but is the Tango really in the same category? Every black opening, even a sound one, has at least one "critical" line which the black player needs to have worked out.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #17 - 01/26/25 at 11:58:09
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I'm reminded of Nunn's Secrets of Practical Chess, where he warns that if your opening appears to hang entirely on specific tactical points like this, your spider senses should be going crazy, and warns of books recommending same. IIRC, he uses Tony's Latvian Gambit book as a cautionary example, but I may be misremembering the particulars  Smiley
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #16 - 01/25/25 at 18:56:35
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Marvellous stuff, AOC -- thanks for it.

Totally agree re engine assessments, obv., but I was, albeit not LEU, LBFS (lazy blighter full stop) in not following through on the Nxe4 sac variation without h4/h5. (Actually, the cause was a rather more specific failing of mine. I have this strange tendency to indulge in 'abstract' thought iso concrete analysis/objective assessment, coupled with -- often powered by! -- 'guilt' about my own thinking, as in "Trust me to enthuse over an opening like the Tango. This dynamic Nxe4 is my, as well as its, punishment!" -- iso just analysing the damn position and realising that it may well be defensible after all! I'm still smarting here over a pertinent recent game I should never have lost, grrrr ...)

Meanwhile the Tango is still looking playable, even if slightly dodgy. Maybe the 'Paradox ' line is the biggest challenge, or one of them? -- but I'm defo not yet in a position to know anything!

  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #15 - 01/24/25 at 19:34:16
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My thoughts on the Tango after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 Ng6.

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It's an exemplar anti Lazy-Engine-User ("LEU" for short) opening, because
  • The engine "loves"  Kiss the space advantage with the pawn on d5, so is prone to overestimate white's position in general. If the Tango is just one of many openings to prepare against, LEU might feel safe here and skip to the next one.
  • The engine doesn't "understand" strategy at all, so often (at least at low depth) recommends moves like 8.f3, as in Ivanisevic - Praggnanandhaa. In fact Stockfish was just now recommending f2-f3 in a similar Tango position, but I let it run and it "found" two better (e.g. positionally sounder) moves. Again LEU could be punished for not taking enough time.
  • There's a time to win material, and a time to sacrifice material. But an engine evaluation like "+1" gives no indication of whether "the reason" is because of the space advantage, because of winning a pawn, or because of a pawn sac with two pawns worth of compensation. LEU is vulnerable here if they don't investigate the lines deeply enough to find out the correct followup. It took me a while to understand the 10.Nxe4 Exchange sac --11.d6!. Although part of that is I usually do interactive analysis using a decrepit (like me!) engine. For the record, the moves are 6.h4 h5 7.a3 Bc5 8.b4 Bd4 9.Nge2 Nxe4 10.Nxe4 Bxa1 11.d6. White still needs a clue here on how to attack afterwards.
All that said, the Tango is a little dodgy from the diagram after h2-h4 ideas and even LEU can read chesspub.

From the white side, each suggested move from the diagram, 6.h4 and 6.a3, has its slight drawback
  • 6.h4 h5 7.a3 a5 8.Be3 (Unfortunately the direct 8.Bg5 trying to bag the h5-pawn doesn't work out. 8...Bc5 9.Be2 d6 10.g3 Bd7 and black is hanging in there.) 8...Ng4 -- the paradoxical line, made possible by ...h7-h5.
  • 6.a3 Bc5 7.b4 Bd4 8.Nge2 Nxe4 9.Nxe4 Bxa1 10.h4 d6 is not crushing like when black has played ...h7-h5.
I would be inclined to choose 6.h4 because after either move black can "require" white to sac, and the followup to the sac is easier after 6.h4. The paradoxical line is difficult to understand but that applies to both colors and at least white is not down in material.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #14 - 01/24/25 at 19:16:48
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Quote:
I expect a work that's more inspirational than perspirational.

Indeed, I fear my expectations were and are similar! But maybe there are some Tango players on here? -- though it does look to me to under a big cloud at the mo ...
  
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #13 - 01/24/25 at 11:42:00
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If you examine the author's recent oeuvre https://shop.chessbase.com/en/authors/andrew_martin, you will notice that he often seems to prioritise having fun over theoretical rigour (Elephant Gambit, anyone?). So I expect a work that's more inspirational than perspirational. And that's absolutely fine. But I think you will be disappointed if you're hoping for the answers to these questions.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #12 - 01/23/25 at 23:01:25
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Bump!?

Surprisingly – at least to me – there’s a new ChessBase video out on the Tango, by Andrew Martin: https://en.chessbase.com/post/andrew-martin-the-surprising-black-knights-tango-u... 

What should we make of this? I had thought the Tango was somewhat under a cloud, lately because of 3 Nc3 e5 4 d5 Ne7 5 e4 Ng6 and now 6 h4 h5 7 a3 or 6 a3 immediately. The Contents of the video cite Nesterov–Praggnanandhaa which went 6 h4 h5 7 Bg5 Bc5, but don’t mention the a3 move at all, presumably so as not to give away the analysis rather than because it isn’t covered, but who knows?

The two major responses to a2-a3 (with or without h4/h5 in) are …Bc5, and …a5. After …Bc5, White (in both lines) plays b4!, meeting …Bd4 with Nge2!, since it seems Black must avoid …Nxe4 then as the sacrificial Nxe4! is a crushing reply, even if no one (?) has actually played it! (And 8/9….c5 is grotty.) Seemingly, no one has met b4 with the engine-recommended …Be7!? either. Perhaps the video suggests this? – at least Black remains on the board, with a small lead in development.

And what of the …a5 defence? In the line with h4/h5 included, I have a note suggesting that the paradoxical (7 a3 a5) 8 Be3!? Ng4 9 Bg5! f6 10 Be3 Ne3 11 fe is strong. But maybe the thematic 11 …c6 is playable here? – at least it dissuades White from crudely mooting Be2/Bxh5. As for 6 a3 a5, another Pragg game (Ivanisevic–Praggnanandhaa) went 7 Be3 b6 8 f3 Bc5 9 Qd2 0-0 (9 …d6 10 0-0-0 Nd7 has also been seen) 10 0-0-0 d6 and Black eventually won. But isn’t 8 h4 here much stronger than 8 f3? – why should White weaken his dark squares at exactly the point Black is getting the darkfielders off the board?

So, what might Martin suggest, and how should Black handle these positions? – all thoughts gratefully received!
  
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #11 - 12/28/12 at 16:39:06
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Vass wrote on 11/05/12 at 17:52:28:

Firstly, why 3...e5 exactly? Imho, 3...e6 is more interesting, though I agree there's no Knights' Tango thereafter.


1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 Ktc6 ; 3. Ktc3 e6 should in principle be considered inferior in view of 4. e4 threatening e5.
Now 4. ...d5 (surely not 4. ...d6 ; 5; Ktf3) ; 5. e5 Kte4 ; 6. Be3 Bb4 ; 7. Rc1 followed by Qg4 and Bd3 leaves Black with very little counterplay.
Cf. 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Ktc6 ; 3. e4 d5 (possibly better are 3. ...e5 and 3. ...Bb4+!? ; 4. Bd2 Bxd2+ ; 5. Qxd2 e5 ; 6. Ktf3 d6 and perhaps even 3. ...Qh4 although this is less strong than 3. Ktc3 Bb4 ; 4. e4 Qh4) 4. e5 dc which carries more bite.
Or 4. ...e5 transposes to 1. c4 Ktf6 ; 2. Ktc3 e6 ; 3. e4 Ktc6 (3. ...c5 is the Main Line) ; 4. d4 e5 and now 5. Ktf3 (5. d5 Ktd4) Bb4 (5...ed is an improved Scotch for White) ; 5. d5 Kte7 ; 6. Ktxe5 Ktxe4 ; 7. Qd4.
Cf. 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Ktc6 ; 3. e4 e5 ; 4. Ktf3 ed ; 5. Ktxd4 Ktge7 (also 5. ...Ktxd4 ; 6. Qxd4 Kte7 and 5. ...Qf6) intending ...Ktxd4, ...Ktc6 and ...Bc5.

  
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Diemerlin
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Tango-Budapest Gambit!!!!
Reply #10 - 12/28/12 at 10:33:22
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Timothy Taylor  in his book "Budapest Gambit" recommended:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.e3!? (rehused gambit) Cc6! Transposition Tango (The white 3.e3 move becomes a waste of time and also encloses the QB).

« Last Edit: 12/28/12 at 11:34:35 by Diemerlin »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #9 - 12/18/12 at 17:11:41
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Very interesting, Mike, thanks -- and just when I was about to give up! I'd tried ...a5 after ...Bb4 but could not make it work -- I didn't think of ...Be7 plus the immediate ...a5 + Knight-reroute plan. Two curious things have struck me about these lines -- first, that Black can even contemplate 'wasting' so much time with his Knight(s), and second that even though Black is cramped, it might be better for him not to force the exchange of dark-squared Bishops ...

Your idea is possible in both move orders, 9 ...a5 10 Bd3 Nf8 and 9 ...Nf8 10 Bd3 a5. One possible problem might be that in neither case is Bd3 forced -- White could try the sneaky Be2, as Houdini looks as though it might be going to (but then it's logical to think ..Nh7 ideas might be on). The next thing to look at perhaps?
  
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #8 - 12/18/12 at 15:22:35
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Michael Ayton wrote on 11/06/12 at 12:34:11:
3 ...e6!?

As regards the Tango, after 7 Qc2 d6!? 8 Bg5 Be7 9 e3, we now have three variations! Here are my thoughts so far:

9 ...Ng4!?

II  9 ...Nh7!?

III  9 ...Nf8!?


 
A fourth line, 9 ... a5, might be worth a shot.  After 10 Bd3, Black redeploys the knight to  c5, e.g., 10 ... Nf8, 11 0-0 N8d7, 12 b3 Nc5, 13 Be2 g6! (encouraging White to clog e4) 14 e4 Bg4 tending toward equality
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Tango after 'Tango!' (2005)
Reply #7 - 11/26/12 at 14:08:06
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Thank you Vass! I look forward to investigating ...
  
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