I am of course not Syzygy, but 3. cd ed 4. Nc3 allows 4...c6, which as far as I know has always been thought to lead to equality.

semper_fidelis wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:30:22:


Yes, White does have several interesting positional options after 3. Nf3 c6. In my opinion, a Semi-Slav devotee who wants a sharp and tense struggle should play:

- 3. Nc3 c6 (Triangle move-order)
- 3. Nf3 Nf6 (QGD move-order)

This allows the Catalan and Marshall gambit, but avoids 3. Nf3 c6, QGD Exchange, Slav Exchange, and Slow Slav.

I didn't specify either 10. Be2 or 10. Bd3 because I think the choice is a matter of taste. 

10. Be2 is arguably the main line, and there the lines with 11. e4 are sharp, critical, and dangerous. On the other hand, if Black does know what they are doing, then achieving equality becomes more a matter of memorization.

10. Bd3 is more interesting to me, because the lines with 16. f4 or 16. a4 offer a more positional approach. Engines may give White a slight advantage at first, but if Black follows correspondence games, he should be able to equalize. If you had to try to milk the most out of the position in the 11. e4 lines, I would opt for 10. Bd3 over 10. Be2.

Furthermore, if you are interested in the very main lines, I also think that 10. Bd3 and 11. a3 is more testing than 10. Be2 and 11. Rd1. However, if you play 10. Bd3, you have to be ready for some move-order tricks: recently, Carlsen tested the approach of delaying castling in favor of a quick ...a6 and ...Bb7 instead, which I think is quite intriguing.

Well, if you choose the old main line of 5. Bg5, you have to contend with the Moscow/Anti-Moscow, Botvinnik, and Cambridge Springs. The Moscow/Anti-Moscow is the soundest option for Black, while the Botvinnik is riskier, but probably the most forcing route to equality. 

If you choose the mainline Meran, 8...a6 will be the most challenging reply. Then Black has his fair share of fun after both 10. e5 and 10. d5, and White hasn't been able to prove an advantage anywhere, as usual. 

Probably the most challenging option nowadays is to go for the Anti-Meran lines with 6. Qc2 and 7. Bd3. After 9...b5, both 10. Bd3 and 10. Be2 has been thoroughly discussed, with the verdict being equality after precise play by both sides in the main lines. I would recommend looking into the Anti-Meran lines, especially the approaches with an immediate 11. e4.

Of course, if Black uses the Slav move-order, I think both the Slav Exchange and Slow Slav are very decent options for White to avoid the Semi-Slav. If Black uses the Queen's Gambit move-order, there's always the QGD Exchange.

Unfortunately, Black also has the Triangle move-order, where the Noteboom and Marshall Gambit have been holding up well for Black, so maybe the Catalan is the way to go. Ultimately, chess is equal, and it's just a matter of taste as to what the most testing lines are... 

Time to resurrect this old thread.

Does anyone have a line for White that they like against the Semi-Slav.  Would be interested to hear about what people play and what they like or don't like about it.

After much searching, I have decided to go for the main lines of the Meran, either by 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3.  After 8..Bb7, I am thinking about 9.e4 rather than 9.0-0, and after 8..a6 still trying to decide between e5 (old main line) or d5 (Reynolds).

I recently won a nice correspondence game in the anti-Moscow gambit:

I think 16...c5 was the decisive mistake (but the engines don't see this at first, they even give a black advantage)

BPaulsen wrote on 12/10/12 at 01:05:05:


Bryan, White seems to maintain an advantage after 10...g5, but I don't see how he gets much of a pull after 10...Bb4 11.Qb3 Bxc3 12.Bxc3 Qc7 (instead of 12..Nxg4 in Bareev-Prie)?  Any thoughts you or others could share?

Quote:


What do you have vs 7.Qb3?
I guess 7..Qb6 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.g4 Bg6 10.Ng6 hg6 11.Bg2 g5 12.0-0 Be7
If you don't have any deviations till that point I think black has very difficult task at hand. For now I don't even see how to end up in something not hopeless for black.
Other tries for black as 7...Qc7 or 8..Nfd7 don't look to convincing either but here I didn't analyse too deeply as the positions just look good for white.

Maybe he means Topalov-Eljanov 2012?

I'll just say that I've played the Black side of 4...Bg4 against fairly strong players (2000-2200), and never been entirely satisfied with my position.  I agree with Bryan about White's possible best line; White has the two Bishops and while Black is solid, it's not that dynamic for the second player.

Without specifics, I remain unswayed. I think Black's task is much easier than in most openings and that White has no advantage after 4. e3 Bg4 5. h3 Bh5. 

Countless hours of trying to find even a subtle White advantage forced me to abandon 4. e3. Show me a line you think gives White an advantage and I'll find the way for Black to get equality. 

"4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face"

Yes, I've studied this line for Black a lot and it's what put me off the system. As far as I can tell, Bg4 gives Black easy equality and is essentially a refutation of 4. e3 as a serious try to fight for the advantage. I hope I'm wrong because I liked this system but no one has given me a specific line that convinces me otherwise thus far.

Sub Master level, I see 5.Bg5 Be7?! almost exclusively.  Which seems strange to me, but I'll take it!

I'm partial to White in the Botvinnik after 5...dc 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.ef.  I know it's not much theoretically, but OTB White's play is much easier, he has clear plans and weaknesses in Black's position to try to exploit.  The OP might look there.

In the Moscow, I've always liked 6.Bxf6 Qxf6 7.Qc2!?, which again may not be a ton theoretically but is easier and more fun to play for White, IMO (having played both sides of it).  Yermolinsky has some good analysis in The Road to Chess Improvement to get started here.

Its the same position with the Grunfeld though

In both cases you've got a mass of perfectly acceptable, objectively dangerous, interesting, tries for white which have all accumulated quite massive amounts of theory. Of course blacks position is very sound too. 

This is how chess is in main line openings

So the basic problem lies in picking something that interests you/suits your style. Don't super obsess about what the final evaluation may or may not be. Its almost certainly drawn.

Like with the meran main lines. Massively theoretical and ultimately drawn? Probably. But there's an absolutely massive amount of very interesting chess content in there. Well worth studying and playing for a bit.

Vass wrote on 11/27/12 at 18:54:51:


It depends on the position that the engine is evaluating for +0.05 to +0.22 to be significant. Some of those are a lot easier to play OTB than others.

As for correspondence, the number means very little as we both know.

Now, on the Slow Slav point punter mentioned - I am assuming you were referring to 4...Bg4 (6...Bg4 doesn't make sense to me) and all I can reply is that I only like white in a particular line there.

The Noteboom move order isn't insurmountable. I prefer something different from Avrukh, but don't feel like spending too much time on the point. I think move this is a case of move order begets move order, and that's all I'll say.

I see that 5.g3 is labelled under "desperation" in the initial post but anyway think that might be a good (practical) try.   

There is a ChessBase 60 minutes video  "Attacking the semi-slav with g3" where Robert Ris advocates it.

kylemeister wrote on 11/27/12 at 19:19:08:


It's a fair punishment for making three pawn moves on the first three moves. Morphy would be appalled! 

Aside from a line commonly chosen by GMs with White being "sterile," I'm glad to learn that a reputedly main line by Black on move 3 allows White to choose straightaway how he wants to be better in the endgame.

BPaulsen wrote on 11/27/12 at 18:47:26:


It seemed from ako's OP that he implied he was happy with 5.Bg5 h6. Surely being able to choose between a sharp gambit and a solid space vs. bishops position would be appealing to a typical White player. 

I agree with you that some of the descriptions of lines are unusual but that's part of what makes chess interesting - we all have different personal preferences.

I'm not sure why only the Botvinnik is mentioned when the Moscow is very solid (6.Bxf6) or satisfactory chaos (6.Bh4). This, to me, represents the main reason 5.Bg5 may not appeal to white players. I prefer white in the Botvinnik, and don't consider learning its ins and outs to be a bad thing - black takes on more risk than white.

I like black in the Meran. It seems like every major development that ever comes out is on his side.

I do find it odd that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 is what is marked as "sterile", when of everything you listed that's where I would most want to be white. The bishop pair is practically guaranteed, and the long-term pressure is on black - learning how to make use of it is instructive. Of course, then black has other options (4...e6 5.Nbd2 leads to Colle-Zuckertort positions where black's task is more difficult than white's, and 4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face).

Ametanoitos wrote on 11/27/12 at 17:42:27:


6. Qc2/b3   or

6.Bd3 dc 7.Bc4 b5 and  8.Bd3/Be2 

What is your favourite?

Study the Main Lines of Meran. You will do a great gift to yourself.

TN wrote on 11/27/12 at 16:03:57:


Wasn't this line suggested in "the Queen's gambit for attacking player" (Burgess)? It looked good, but an early -Ra7-d7 lift gave black good play. Has this been fixed?

Seriously, start playing the Semi-Slav as Black (even just in blitz) and see how your opinions of these moves change.  You'll have a better idea about how to play as White, then.

with such a picture of white's choices i would advise you playing it as black 

Maybe in the mayhem choice (3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc) 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.ef6!? gh 10.Ne5 Qf6 and now 11.a4 or 11.g3 are relatively off-beat choices where  theory is not that developed as in the proper Botvinnik.