Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What the heck to play against the semi-slav?? (Read 37096 times)
Syzygy
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 01/25/18
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #50 - 07/07/20 at 18:03:09
Post Tools
ArKheiN wrote on 07/07/20 at 17:07:06:
Syzygy tell me how you avoid exchange QGD after 3.cxd5?


OK, you got me. When I said "QGD Exchange", I was referring to the most dangerous version with 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5.

The versions with 3. cxd5, 3. Nc3 c6 4. cxd5, and 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. cxd5 are all harmless for Black; the former because 3...Nf6 has not been played yet, and the latter because White has committed to an early Nf3.

So yes, White can technically force a QGD Exchange on move 3 or 4, but not under favorable conditions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4713
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #49 - 07/07/20 at 18:02:44
Post Tools
I am of course not Syzygy, but 3. cd ed 4. Nc3 allows 4...c6, which as far as I know has always been thought to lead to equality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 719
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #48 - 07/07/20 at 17:07:06
Post Tools
Syzygy tell me how you avoid exchange QGD after 3.cxd5?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Syzygy
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 01/25/18
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #47 - 07/06/20 at 22:11:22
Post Tools
semper_fidelis wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:30:22:
Syzygy wrote on 05/05/20 at 02:32:48:
Unfortunately, Black also has the Triangle move-order, where the Noteboom and Marshall Gambit have been holding up well for Black, so maybe the Catalan is the way to go. Ultimately, chess is equal, and it's just a matter of taste as to what the most testing lines are...  Smiley



Triangle move-order gives additional options for White too. For example, 3.Nf3/4.Qc2 setup now gets another flavour as Black is denied of Bf5/g4 option. There are possible transpositions to Anti-Meran or Moscow (for White) after 4...Nf6. A close relative is 3.Nf3/4.Qb3 system where Black needs to show something a well (using Slav move order there is always Bf5/g4 setup). Although the lines are (of course) equal, white seems to have good score in them. Also, if an opponent uses traingle move-order, he usually seeks for sharp theoretical struggle, not a tricky strategic game like this.


Yes, White does have several interesting positional options after 3. Nf3 c6. In my opinion, a Semi-Slav devotee who wants a sharp and tense struggle should play:

- 3. Nc3 c6 (Triangle move-order)
- 3. Nf3 Nf6 (QGD move-order)

This allows the Catalan and Marshall gambit, but avoids 3. Nf3 c6, QGD Exchange, Slav Exchange, and Slow Slav.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
semper_fidelis
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 33
Joined: 01/21/18
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #46 - 07/06/20 at 20:30:22
Post Tools
Syzygy wrote on 05/05/20 at 02:32:48:
Unfortunately, Black also has the Triangle move-order, where the Noteboom and Marshall Gambit have been holding up well for Black, so maybe the Catalan is the way to go. Ultimately, chess is equal, and it's just a matter of taste as to what the most testing lines are...  Smiley



Triangle move-order gives additional options for White too. For example, 3.Nf3/4.Qc2 setup now gets another flavour as Black is denied of Bf5/g4 option. There are possible transpositions to Anti-Meran or Moscow (for White) after 4...Nf6. A close relative is 3.Nf3/4.Qb3 system where Black needs to show something a well (using Slav move order there is always Bf5/g4 setup). Although the lines are (of course) equal, white seems to have good score in them. Also, if an opponent uses traingle move-order, he usually seeks for sharp theoretical struggle, not a tricky strategic game like this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Syzygy
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 01/25/18
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #45 - 05/10/20 at 19:27:48
Post Tools
I didn't specify either 10. Be2 or 10. Bd3 because I think the choice is a matter of taste.

10. Be2 is arguably the main line, and there the lines with 11. e4 are sharp, critical, and dangerous. On the other hand, if Black does know what they are doing, then achieving equality becomes more a matter of memorization.

10. Bd3 is more interesting to me, because the lines with 16. f4 or 16. a4 offer a more positional approach. Engines may give White a slight advantage at first, but if Black follows correspondence games, he should be able to equalize. If you had to try to milk the most out of the position in the 11. e4 lines, I would opt for 10. Bd3 over 10. Be2.

Furthermore, if you are interested in the very main lines, I also think that 10. Bd3 and 11. a3 is more testing than 10. Be2 and 11. Rd1. However, if you play 10. Bd3, you have to be ready for some move-order tricks: recently, Carlsen tested the approach of delaying castling in favor of a quick ...a6 and ...Bb7 instead, which I think is quite intriguing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #44 - 05/09/20 at 20:33:39
Post Tools
Thanks for the replies.   Smiley

The Spassky Gambit is intriguing since it can also be used against the Slav.  There's something to be said about specializing in a complicated line that you might understand better than your opponents.

The 6.Qc2/7.Bd3 line is also interesting.  After 7..0-0 8.0-0 dxc4 9.Bxc4 b5, I wasn't sure which Bishop retreat you were recommending.

10.Be2 is more popular, when 10..Bb7 11.e4 e5 12.dxe5 Nxe5 13.Nd4 Neg4 14.g3 can be met by 14..Bc5 15.Nf5 Re8 16.Bf4 Qb6 or 14..Bxg3 15. hxg3 Qxd4 16.Qd1 Qxd1.  There is also 13.Nh4, which is recommended on a Modern Chess database, but it looks like this can be met by 13..g6 (iso Giri's 13..Bc8) 14.f4 Bc5 15.Kh1 Neg4 16, g3 b4 17.Nd1 Bd4.

After 10.Bd3 Bb7 11.e4 (11.a3) 11..e5 12.dxe5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 Bxe5 14.h3 Re8 15.Be3 a6 -- which can be reached through various move orders -- White can try 16.f4 Bxc3 17.bxc3 or 16.Rfd1 Qc7 17.a4 and maybe claim a very slight edge?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Syzygy
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 01/25/18
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #43 - 05/05/20 at 02:32:48
Post Tools
Well, if you choose the old main line of 5. Bg5, you have to contend with the Moscow/Anti-Moscow, Botvinnik, and Cambridge Springs. The Moscow/Anti-Moscow is the soundest option for Black, while the Botvinnik is riskier, but probably the most forcing route to equality.

If you choose the mainline Meran, 8...a6 will be the most challenging reply. Then Black has his fair share of fun after both 10. e5 and 10. d5, and White hasn't been able to prove an advantage anywhere, as usual.

Probably the most challenging option nowadays is to go for the Anti-Meran lines with 6. Qc2 and 7. Bd3. After 9...b5, both 10. Bd3 and 10. Be2 has been thoroughly discussed, with the verdict being equality after precise play by both sides in the main lines. I would recommend looking into the Anti-Meran lines, especially the approaches with an immediate 11. e4.

Of course, if Black uses the Slav move-order, I think both the Slav Exchange and Slow Slav are very decent options for White to avoid the Semi-Slav. If Black uses the Queen's Gambit move-order, there's always the QGD Exchange.

Unfortunately, Black also has the Triangle move-order, where the Noteboom and Marshall Gambit have been holding up well for Black, so maybe the Catalan is the way to go. Ultimately, chess is equal, and it's just a matter of taste as to what the most testing lines are...  Smiley

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10620
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #42 - 05/04/20 at 05:41:31
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 05/03/20 at 19:48:17:
Does anyone have a line for White that they like against the Semi-Slav.

I've had some fun with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dxc4 6.e4 b5 7.Be2 Nbd7 8.O-O Bb7 9.Qc2 (h6 10.Bh4 g5 11.Bg3), which has transposed to the Spassky Gambit 4...dxc4 5.e4 b5 6.Qc2. The romantic irrationality of these lines strongly reminds me of the King's Gambit. That's an amusing thought. It's objectively equal, of course.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #41 - 05/03/20 at 19:48:17
Post Tools
Time to resurrect this old thread. Smiley

Does anyone have a line for White that they like against the Semi-Slav.  Would be interested to hear about what people play and what they like or don't like about it.

After much searching, I have decided to go for the main lines of the Meran, either by 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3.  After 8..Bb7, I am thinking about 9.e4 rather than 9.0-0, and after 8..a6 still trying to decide between e5 (old main line) or d5 (Reynolds).




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #40 - 02/19/13 at 07:06:16
Post Tools
According to Dreev in his Chess Star book the whole line with 10...Nh5 is dubious.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 617
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #39 - 02/19/13 at 01:51:30
Post Tools
I recently won a nice correspondence game in the anti-Moscow gambit:

I think 16...c5 was the decisive mistake (but the engines don't see this at first, they even give a black advantage)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #38 - 12/18/12 at 19:43:29
Post Tools
14.Qa4 is interesting, intending to meet ...Nb6 with Qa5, and otherwise shoring up c4 with b3. White shouldn't fear potential queen exchanges due to his bishop pair and potential pawn breaks in the future to open the position (ie: e4). You can take a look and decide for yourself, but at least white tries to make use of the undefended Qc7 this way. One other point of the idea shows up after 14.Qa4 Nb6 15.Qa5 dxc4 16.Qxg5.

There are other tries as well, and black will doubtlessly have to be careful against those too.

I'm not trying to claim some definitive += if the defenders of the black side think that's the case, either. Black's not doing badly for himself, but I don't think he's got full equality. I only entered this discussion because of 4...Bg4 being thought of as an "easy equalizer", because to me that indicates a fully equal share of the chances and to me that's not is what is going on here. As far as I'm concerned a discussion as to whether it's += or = is valid, and the reason both sides can be content.

Mileage may vary. I think I'd rather take whatever white's got here than wander around in the Moscow/Anti-Moscow/Meran/Anti-Meran wildnerness. It's a case of lesser evils, and at least his cause isn't hopeless.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
WSS
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 271
Joined: 04/22/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #37 - 12/18/12 at 16:36:48
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 12/10/12 at 01:05:05:
6.Nc3 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Bd2 and let's see what you got. If you go with 10...g5 I will recommend white's cause in Topalov-Eljanov until an easy improvement on move 15. If you go with 10...Bb4 then I offer 11.Qb3 and meet 11...a5 with 12.cxd5 and 11...Bxc3 I have an improvement in mind over Bareev-Prie. Other moves challenge white considerably less.


Bryan, White seems to maintain an advantage after 10...g5, but I don't see how he gets much of a pull after 10...Bb4 11.Qb3 Bxc3 12.Bxc3 Qc7 (instead of 12..Nxg4 in Bareev-Prie)?  Any thoughts you or others could share?

« Last Edit: 12/19/12 at 15:22:52 by WSS »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #36 - 12/14/12 at 01:15:11
Post Tools
punter wrote on 12/13/12 at 16:00:15:
Quote:
Show me a line you think gives White an advantage and I'll find the way for Black to get equality.


What do you have vs 7.Qb3?
I guess 7..Qb6 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.g4 Bg6 10.Ng6 hg6 11.Bg2 g5 12.0-0 Be7
If you don't have any deviations till that point I think black has very difficult task at hand. For now I don't even see how to end up in something not hopeless for black.
Other tries for black as 7...Qc7 or 8..Nfd7 don't look to convincing either but here I didn't analyse too deeply as the positions just look good for white.


7...Qc7 is preferable there due to an important ...Nb6 resource that makes white clarify the situation with the c-pawn, in turn making it more likely black fully equalizes. A. Evdomikov-D. Dubov, Moscow 2012 highlights black's best path there, where he just managed to equalize in time by chopping white's dark-squared bishop. Other continuations fall short for black.

Even in that particular game black's life can't be described as "easy" outside of correspondence, and even there black is going to have to put in some effort.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
punter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 05/18/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #35 - 12/13/12 at 16:00:15
Post Tools
Quote:
Show me a line you think gives White an advantage and I'll find the way for Black to get equality.


What do you have vs 7.Qb3?
I guess 7..Qb6 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.g4 Bg6 10.Ng6 hg6 11.Bg2 g5 12.0-0 Be7
If you don't have any deviations till that point I think black has very difficult task at hand. For now I don't even see how to end up in something not hopeless for black.
Other tries for black as 7...Qc7 or 8..Nfd7 don't look to convincing either but here I didn't analyse too deeply as the positions just look good for white.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #34 - 12/12/12 at 01:17:26
Post Tools
Tolotos wrote on 12/11/12 at 19:18:39:
Maybe he means Topalov-Eljanov 2012?


Yep, that's what I get for going by memory. Eljanov, not Bareev. Silly me.

I also like 11.Qf3 aside from that (it might be more logical) - I still don't think calling the whole continuation with 4...Bg4 an "easy equalizer" is right, at any rate. Engines tend to think it is for awhile, and as the middle game unfolds that often changes, particularly after patient play from white. Such complex positions cannot be diagnosed quickly.

We'll continue to see high level GM clashes for this reason alone.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Tolotos
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 13
Location: Graz
Joined: 02/16/04
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #33 - 12/11/12 at 19:18:39
Post Tools
Maybe he means Topalov-Eljanov 2012?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
exigentsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Q

Posts: 402
Joined: 05/14/07
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #32 - 12/11/12 at 13:00:35
Post Tools
I won't have access to my chess computer until the 16th but I'll be sure to give you my lines and thoughts. Meanwhile, I can't find the Topalov game. Can you post it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #31 - 12/10/12 at 01:52:27
Post Tools
I'll just say that I've played the Black side of 4...Bg4 against fairly strong players (2000-2200), and never been entirely satisfied with my position.  I agree with Bryan about White's possible best line; White has the two Bishops and while Black is solid, it's not that dynamic for the second player.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #30 - 12/10/12 at 01:05:05
Post Tools
exigentsky wrote on 12/09/12 at 10:26:15:
Without specifics, I remain unswayed. I think Black's task is much easier than in most openings and that White has no advantage after 4. e3 Bg4 5. h3 Bh5.

Countless hours of trying to find even a subtle White advantage forced me to abandon 4. e3. Show me a line you think gives White an advantage and I'll find the way for Black to get equality. 


6.Nc3 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Bd2 and let's see what you got. If you go with 10...g5 I will recommend white's cause in Topalov-Bareev until an easy improvement on move 15. If you go with 10...Bb4 then I offer 11.Qb3 and meet 11...a5 with 12.cxd5 and 11...Bxc3 I have an improvement in mind over Bareev-Prie. Other moves challenge white considerably less.

This should be interesting if nothing else. I am guessing you believe black has his solution in one of those lines, so which one has your fancy?
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
exigentsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Q

Posts: 402
Joined: 05/14/07
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #29 - 12/09/12 at 10:26:15
Post Tools
Without specifics, I remain unswayed. I think Black's task is much easier than in most openings and that White has no advantage after 4. e3 Bg4 5. h3 Bh5.

Countless hours of trying to find even a subtle White advantage forced me to abandon 4. e3. Show me a line you think gives White an advantage and I'll find the way for Black to get equality. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #28 - 11/30/12 at 01:38:47
Post Tools
exigentsky wrote on 11/30/12 at 00:04:48:
"4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face"

Yes, I've studied this line for Black a lot and it's what put me off the system. As far as I can tell, Bg4 gives Black easy equality and is essentially a refutation of 4. e3 as a serious try to fight for the advantage. I hope I'm wrong because I liked this system but no one has given me a specific line that convinces me otherwise thus far.


4...Bg4 is neither a "refutation of 4.e3 as a try for an advantage" nor an "easy equalizer" in what I've seen in the analysis I've compiled. 5.h3 isn't even close to solved, and most of the critical continuations turn += later on according to engines if white is precise and knows what he's heading towards.

Both sides can be generally satisfied with the results of the opening - white gets an abstract theoretical advantage that might get bigger, while black gets a very solid position that might not crack. The positions are way too complex to pass any concrete judgements of yet.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
exigentsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Q

Posts: 402
Joined: 05/14/07
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #27 - 11/30/12 at 00:04:48
Post Tools
"4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face"

Yes, I've studied this line for Black a lot and it's what put me off the system. As far as I can tell, Bg4 gives Black easy equality and is essentially a refutation of 4. e3 as a serious try to fight for the advantage. I hope I'm wrong because I liked this system but no one has given me a specific line that convinces me otherwise thus far.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 278
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #26 - 11/28/12 at 18:46:08
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 11/28/12 at 16:14:41:
Sub Master level, I see 5.Bg5 Be7?! almost exclusively.  Which seems strange to me, but I'll take it!

I'm partial to White in the Botvinnik after 5...dc 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.ef.  I know it's not much theoretically, but OTB White's play is much easier, he has clear plans and weaknesses in Black's position to try to exploit.  The OP might look there.

In the Moscow, I've always liked 6.Bxf6 Qxf6 7.Qc2!?, which again may not be a ton theoretically but is easier and more fun to play for White, IMO (having played both sides of it).  Yermolinsky has some good analysis in The Road to Chess Improvement to get started here.


Thanks! These both look very interesting.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #25 - 11/28/12 at 16:14:41
Post Tools
Sub Master level, I see 5.Bg5 Be7?! almost exclusively.  Which seems strange to me, but I'll take it!

I'm partial to White in the Botvinnik after 5...dc 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.ef.  I know it's not much theoretically, but OTB White's play is much easier, he has clear plans and weaknesses in Black's position to try to exploit.  The OP might look there.

In the Moscow, I've always liked 6.Bxf6 Qxf6 7.Qc2!?, which again may not be a ton theoretically but is easier and more fun to play for White, IMO (having played both sides of it).  Yermolinsky has some good analysis in The Road to Chess Improvement to get started here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 278
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #24 - 11/28/12 at 10:52:01
Post Tools
Well, Grynfeld has been solved: 1.Nf3
Wink

P.S. There is 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3!? (see Delchev's book) but I think it is artificial, and 2.-d4! = is a real problem.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2017
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #23 - 11/28/12 at 10:14:45
Post Tools
Its the same position with the Grunfeld though Smiley

In both cases you've got a mass of perfectly acceptable, objectively dangerous, interesting, tries for white which have all accumulated quite massive amounts of theory. Of course blacks position is very sound too.

This is how chess is in main line openings Smiley

So the basic problem lies in picking something that interests you/suits your style. Don't super obsess about what the final evaluation may or may not be. Its almost certainly drawn.

Like with the meran main lines. Massively theoretical and ultimately drawn? Probably. But there's an absolutely massive amount of very interesting chess content in there. Well worth studying and playing for a bit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
punter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 05/18/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #22 - 11/28/12 at 09:04:01
Post Tools
It really depends on how much theory you want to learn and what kind of position you like.
It seems like you don't like "Mayhem" although if you are happy to learn some theory I think you will welcome Botvinnik in your games. Most of the time you will see 5...h6 though and then you have 101 ways to make black suffer in Moscow relatively risk free as well.
Overall in Slav I think black suffers in mainline as well as side lines. This thread would be better about Grunfeld Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #21 - 11/28/12 at 03:19:50
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 11/27/12 at 18:54:51:
If we're looking at engine evaluations, the best seems to be the Slow Slav. But the difference between +0.22 and +0.05 is practically nothing in the OTB chess.
As for the correspondence chess, the significance is mainly psychological..  Wink


It depends on the position that the engine is evaluating for +0.05 to +0.22 to be significant. Some of those are a lot easier to play OTB than others. Wink

As for correspondence, the number means very little as we both know. Smiley

Now, on the Slow Slav point punter mentioned - I am assuming you were referring to 4...Bg4 (6...Bg4 doesn't make sense to me) and all I can reply is that I only like white in a particular line there.

The Noteboom move order isn't insurmountable. I prefer something different from Avrukh, but don't feel like spending too much time on the point. I think move this is a case of move order begets move order, and that's all I'll say.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 278
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #20 - 11/27/12 at 22:38:12
Post Tools
Anders wrote on 11/27/12 at 22:18:40:
I see that 5.g3 is labelled under "desperation" in the initial post but anyway think that might be a good (practical) try. 

There is a ChessBase 60 minutes video  "Attacking the semi-slav with g3" where Robert Ris advocates it.




I have seen it. It seems too speculative to me..... and  even the closed system with Be7 not considered in the DVD instead of Bd6 seen in the DVD is an improved closed catalan for black.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #19 - 11/27/12 at 22:18:40
Post Tools
I see that 5.g3 is labelled under "desperation" in the initial post but anyway think that might be a good (practical) try. 

There is a ChessBase 60 minutes video  "Attacking the semi-slav with g3" where Robert Ris advocates it.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #18 - 11/27/12 at 20:38:09
Post Tools
That is true, the Marshall is for sure more fun than an exchange. Even though Morozevich last game in the Exchange Slav was not boring...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #17 - 11/27/12 at 20:37:17
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 11/27/12 at 19:19:08:
Aside from a line commonly chosen by GMs with White being "sterile," I'm glad to learn that a reputedly main line by Black on move 3 allows White to choose straightaway how he wants to be better in the endgame.


It's a fair punishment for making three pawn moves on the first three moves. Morphy would be appalled!

  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
punter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 05/18/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #16 - 11/27/12 at 20:18:33
Post Tools
Basically that's what black got in Ne2 Marshall. See game Timofeev - Frolyanov 2012 (repeated by most strong players holding black pieces there). If that endgame is winnable at some very high level it's another question but it might be good practical choice.
Of course black can make some concessions and get messier position like in: Nepomniachtchi - Pavasovic but I spent a lot of time analysing those positions and imo white can either reduce black to endgame again (even better this time) or play for a win in messy position.
In any case this is breath of fresh air and hope for white comparing to main line Meran.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4713
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #15 - 11/27/12 at 19:19:08
Post Tools
Aside from a line commonly chosen by GMs with White being "sterile," I'm glad to learn that a reputedly main line by Black on move 3 allows White to choose straightaway how he wants to be better in the endgame.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
punter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 05/18/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #14 - 11/27/12 at 18:59:15
Post Tools
Yeah I agree that "slow Slav" is decent try for white, at least the positions are pleasant and black is a bit cramped. I used to play it but there are two problems:
- black can go triangle where he has additional option of f5 while additional options for white (b3, Nbd2) weren't enough for me to want to go for semi-slav type of position
- after 6..Bg4 you get less than in exchange slav imo.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #13 - 11/27/12 at 18:56:47
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 11/27/12 at 18:47:26:
I'm not sure why only the Botvinnik is mentioned when the Moscow is very solid (6.Bxf6) or satisfactory chaos (6.Bh4). This, to me, represents the main reason 5.Bg5 may not appeal to white players. I prefer white in the Botvinnik, and don't consider learning its ins and outs to be a bad thing - black takes on more risk than white.

I like black in the Meran. It seems like every major development that ever comes out is on his side.

I do find it odd that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 is what is marked as "sterile", when of everything you listed that's where I would most want to be white. The bishop pair is practically guaranteed, and the long-term pressure is on black - learning how to make use of it is instructive. Of course, then black has other options (4...e6 5.Nbd2 leads to Colle-Zuckertort positions where black's task is more difficult than white's, and 4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face).


It seemed from ako's OP that he implied he was happy with 5.Bg5 h6. Surely being able to choose between a sharp gambit and a solid space vs. bishops position would be appealing to a typical White player.

I agree with you that some of the descriptions of lines are unusual but that's part of what makes chess interesting - we all have different personal preferences.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vass
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1105
Joined: 06/22/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #12 - 11/27/12 at 18:54:51
Post Tools
If we're looking at engine evaluations, the best seems to be the Slow Slav. But the difference between +0.22 and +0.05 is practically nothing in the OTB chess.
As for the correspondence chess, the significance is mainly psychological..  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #11 - 11/27/12 at 18:47:26
Post Tools
I'm not sure why only the Botvinnik is mentioned when the Moscow is very solid (6.Bxf6) or satisfactory chaos (6.Bh4). This, to me, represents the main reason 5.Bg5 may not appeal to white players. I prefer white in the Botvinnik, and don't consider learning its ins and outs to be a bad thing - black takes on more risk than white.

I like black in the Meran. It seems like every major development that ever comes out is on his side.

I do find it odd that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 is what is marked as "sterile", when of everything you listed that's where I would most want to be white. The bishop pair is practically guaranteed, and the long-term pressure is on black - learning how to make use of it is instructive. Of course, then black has other options (4...e6 5.Nbd2 leads to Colle-Zuckertort positions where black's task is more difficult than white's, and 4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face).
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 278
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #10 - 11/27/12 at 18:39:24
Post Tools
punter wrote on 11/27/12 at 18:33:12:
Quote:
You mean transposing into a really lame version of the QGD exchange after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 and now 4. cxd5? Black will get his light-squared bishop out without problems etc, or did I miss something?


After 3...e6 there is 3.e4 which is quite pleasant for white as they choose between better endgame (Bb4+, Nc3), different better endgame (Ne2 in Marshall Gambit) or complicated gambit position in mainline of Marshall Gambit.


Yes. Marshall is good enough for me Smiley I prefer it to Noteboom.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 278
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #9 - 11/27/12 at 18:38:47
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 11/27/12 at 17:42:27:
Study the Main Lines of Meran. You will do a great gift to yourself.


6. Qc2/b3   or

6.Bd3 dc 7.Bc4 b5 and  8.Bd3/Be2

What is your favourite?
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
punter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 05/18/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #8 - 11/27/12 at 18:33:12
Post Tools
Quote:
You mean transposing into a really lame version of the QGD exchange after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 and now 4. cxd5? Black will get his light-squared bishop out without problems etc, or did I miss something?


After 3...e6 there is 3.e4 which is quite pleasant for white as they choose between better endgame (Bb4+, Nc3), different better endgame (Ne2 in Marshall Gambit) or complicated gambit position in mainline of Marshall Gambit.

Edited:
Study the Main Lines of Meran. You will do a great gift to yourself.


I tried to find something in mainlines but the problem is it's analyzed almost to the endgame and endgames even if more pleasant for white are less than you get in exchange for example. I had the same mindset as OP some time ago. Black is very ok in mainlines and they like/know the positions arising.
Kramnik tried studyign the mainline and got his ass handed to him by Anand. Anand got nothing vs semislav hybrid vs Gelfand. If you play with your computer it's difficult ot get anything higher than +0.05 and most of those 0.05+ simplifei to dead drawn endgame soon enough. You can't expect OP making some theoretical break through which neither Kramnik nor Anand were able to make.
Going with exchange or 4.Qb3 is much better way to go imo.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #7 - 11/27/12 at 17:42:27
Post Tools
Study the Main Lines of Meran. You will do a great gift to yourself.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #6 - 11/27/12 at 17:34:39
Post Tools
punter wrote on 11/27/12 at 15:45:37:
3.Nc3 and 4.cd5:


You mean transposing into a really lame version of the QGD exchange after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 and now 4. cxd5? Black will get his light-squared bishop out without problems etc, or did I miss something?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 278
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #5 - 11/27/12 at 16:30:33
Post Tools
TN wrote on 11/27/12 at 16:03:57:
The Botvinnik isn't such mayhem if you play 6.a4 Bb4 7.e4. It's not going to refute the opening of course but you get a position and if you study the line properly the chances are you'll get good positions with it. Ikonnikov wrote a good survey on this line in some recent Yearbooks. Agropop's suggestion can also be dangerous but those positions are a bit more irrational in nature (something I figure you want to avoid).


Wasn't this line suggested in "the Queen's gambit for attacking player" (Burgess)? It looked good, but an early -Ra7-d7 lift gave black good play. Has this been fixed?
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #4 - 11/27/12 at 16:03:57
Post Tools
The Botvinnik isn't such mayhem if you play 6.a4 Bb4 7.e4. It's not going to refute the opening of course but you get a position and if you study the line properly the chances are you'll get good positions with it. Ikonnikov wrote a good survey on this line in some recent Yearbooks. Agropop's suggestion can also be dangerous but those positions are a bit more irrational in nature (something I figure you want to avoid).

It might not be a bad idea to trot out the occasional Exchange Variation, just because it will give you a good education in playing quieter positions. An equal position and a drawn position are two very different things and it doesn't hurt to have a second line for when you want to avoid cutting edge theory.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #3 - 11/27/12 at 16:01:25
Post Tools
Seriously, start playing the Semi-Slav as Black (even just in blitz) and see how your opinions of these moves change.  You'll have a better idea about how to play as White, then.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
punter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 05/18/11
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #2 - 11/27/12 at 15:45:37
Post Tools
3.Nc3 and 4.cd5:
-black will hate you from move 4
-most black players will hand you big advantage in attempt "to make things interesting" or "creating winning chances for black"
-even if they don't it's very serious try for advantage which most people/authors ignore or don't understand seeing it as an draw offer. Just see 2600+gm's games in this line to see how to play it and what move order makes black suffer.
-also according to Hiarcs book it's the best scoring line vs slav in computer chess; for humans it should be even better as it's easy to make a mistake in passive position without counterplay which you get as balck vs exchange.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
agropop
Junior Member
**
Offline


Use your brain

Posts: 51
Location: Madrid
Joined: 04/13/10
Gender: Male
Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #1 - 11/27/12 at 15:39:32
Post Tools
with such a picture of white's choices i would advise you playing it as black  Grin

Maybe in the mayhem choice (3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc) 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.ef6!? gh 10.Ne5 Qf6 and now 11.a4 or 11.g3 are relatively off-beat choices where  theory is not that developed as in the proper Botvinnik.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 278
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
11/27/12 at 15:20:48
Post Tools
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6

a) 2.cd  -tame

b) 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 -sterile

c) 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nbd7 -black is flexible and happy

d) 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc -mayhem

f) 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.cd/g3/Qb3 -desperation

e) 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2/Qb3/Nbd2  -more desperation

e) 1.e4 -???

Sad
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo