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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) English sub-optimal move order for Black (Read 6945 times)
MartinC
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #13 - 12/04/12 at 10:04:54
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Certainly from having played with ideas like c6 ^ b5/d5 against Botvinnik style set ups from both a d6/Be7/Bf8/Re8 and a g6/Bg7 etc set up, the latter does seem to work out a little more comfortably for black.
  
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fling
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #12 - 12/04/12 at 08:08:12
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Matemax wrote on 12/04/12 at 07:47:12:
fling wrote on 12/04/12 at 06:39:53:
Kylemeister, I agree. I used the d3, a3-b4 approach in my previous game. It should be like a reversed closed Sicilian but with the bishop badly placed on e7. I just think this would be a bit better for Black since a more closed game would lessen the effect of a passively placed bishop on e7.

the bishop on e7 may go back to f8 (after ...Re8) and perhaps even to g7 later on - in a cramped position (which Black chose voluntarily!) it is not possible to have all your pieces working, but they can come to life later on

it is similar in Benoni when Black often doesn't know what to do with the Bc8 and simply puts it on b7 (well at least that's the suggestion of Ziegler on his DVD).

If you play slowly with White (d3, a3, b4) Black may have time to regroup - I think the critical approach has to be a quick d4.


Yes, sorry if I was unclear. That is what I meant, in a closed game, even if the bishop is on e7, Black might have time to move it somewhere else without major problems. This is also what happened in my previous aforementioned game, when I played too slowly and let Black develop a kingside initiative. The bishop got to f6, opposing my control of the long diagonal (bishop on b2). The same would also apply to the Botvinnik system to a certain degree I guess.

Although even in a closed position, the position might open up and in that case the bishop could be bad on e7.

I fully agree, it seems like d4 should be critical. This is what I will play for in my future games, after actually have met this continuation in 4 games the last two years. This is a pretty high percentage considering I play less than 10 per year...

I guess this is totally obvious to Marin, or else something could have been mentioned in GM3. In this respect, I think Khalifman's Opening for White according to Kramnik is covering more compared to Marin's work (I only have vol 3, though, which covers solely the symmetrical). Of course, this particular variation won't be covered in OFWAK, since it starts with 1. Nf3!
  
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Matemax
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #11 - 12/04/12 at 07:47:12
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fling wrote on 12/04/12 at 06:39:53:
Kylemeister, I agree. I used the d3, a3-b4 approach in my previous game. It should be like a reversed closed Sicilian but with the bishop badly placed on e7. I just think this would be a bit better for Black since a more closed game would lessen the effect of a passively placed bishop on e7.

the bishop on e7 may go back to f8 (after ...Re8) and perhaps even to g7 later on - in a cramped position (which Black chose voluntarily!) it is not possible to have all your pieces working, but they can come to life later on

it is similar in Benoni when Black often doesn't know what to do with the Bc8 and simply puts it on b7 (well at least that's the suggestion of Ziegler on his DVD).

If you play slowly with White (d3, a3, b4) Black may have time to regroup - I think the critical approach has to be a quick d4.
  
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #10 - 12/04/12 at 06:39:53
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Kylemeister, I agree. I used the d3, a3-b4 approach in my previous game. It should be like a reversed closed Sicilian but with the bishop badly placed on e7. I just think this would be a bit better for Black since a more closed game would lessen the effect of a passively placed bishop on e7.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #9 - 12/03/12 at 22:39:18
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One thing I notice regarding White playing Nf3 and Black playing ŕ la the Old Indian (this sort of thing:  1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 Be7 4. Nf3 d6 5. Nc3 or 4. Nc3 c6 5. Nf3 d6) is that (yes) ECO thought that White should be slightly better with a d3 English approach as well as going for an Old Indian transposition with d4.  Its main line in the former case cited a game by (Chess Publishing's formerly own) Nigel Davies against Goldin in 1995.  Seems pretty unsurprising.
  
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fling
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #8 - 12/03/12 at 17:57:36
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I see. I haven't checked ECO for a long time. Well, almost never.

Anyway, it is probably more a Philidor of some sort, because the pawn structure usually is different in the Old Indian. And this structure is what had me confused, i.e. what plan to really use.
  
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #7 - 12/03/12 at 15:16:06
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Regarding the Nimzovich-Schlechter sort of thing, I was reminded of this old bit from ECO:  1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 Be7 5. Bg2 d6 6. d4 ed 7. Nxd4 Nxd4 8. Qxd4 c6 9. 0-0 0-0 10. b3 Be6 11. Bb2 ± Gheorghiu-Huffman, Las Vegas 1974. 
  
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #6 - 12/03/12 at 12:44:55
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fling wrote on 12/03/12 at 07:28:44:
...

Hacker, yes, I remember seeing this, thanks. There are no variations given though, right?


That's right, no variation is given only the recommendation,
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #5 - 12/03/12 at 11:05:43
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Thanks, TN. A PM would be appreciated. Well, I agree. I am not sure at all why I refrained from both d4 and a Botvinnik set-up immediately. I did play e4 later on, and must have been better but couldn't really break through. The position turned into some some kind of Old indian/Maroczy-hybrid type I guess, because of the pawn structure with a6-b6-c6-d6 f7-g7-h7 for Black vs e4-c4 and a2-b2-f2-g3-h2 for White, and the Black bishops on e7 and b7 (which seemed stranged at the time). I played f4 to chase his knight on e5, but didn't follow up properly. I wasn't really decided on whether to play on the queenside, kingside, center or all of them! Too much to decide from.

I saw that Miezis had played quite a few games with similar structures. I will have a look at those. Maybe also look at more plans in the Old Indian variations.
  
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #4 - 12/03/12 at 08:02:13
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Sorry for going off-topic but this 3...Be7 line reminds me of 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 d6, where after 4.g3 Black generally struggles to do anything because he has to play ...e5 later to control some space, and also the Black bishop is stuck behind the pawn chain. Of course it's an extra tempo for Black in comparison with this 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 e5 3.Bg2 Be7 4.Nc3 0-0 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2, but I still feel that White should have a small edge. Miezis's white games in the Mikenas line are a pretty good example of how to handle the position.

Actually in the Nimzowitsch-Schlechter game, if White plays 7.d4 exd4 8.Nxd4 the play transposes to a game I played some years back which was basically a positional crush (and isn't in the databases). I can PM you the game if you want.
  

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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #3 - 12/03/12 at 07:28:44
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In that game, I am not sure putting the bishop on b2 is really the way I'd like to play it. Playing an early d4 and keeping the dark-squared bishop at home seems more flexible. This is how Marin has played it so far.

Hacker, yes, I remember seeing this, thanks. There are no variations given though, right?
  
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #2 - 12/03/12 at 06:50:14
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If you go for 5.e4, 6.Nge2, 7.0-0 (Botvinnik) you will probably face something like an Old Indian setup with ...d6,...c6,...Nbd7,....a5,...Nd7-c5 and so on
  
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Re: English sub-optimal move order for Black
Reply #1 - 12/03/12 at 05:42:09
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Kosten gives 3...Be7 a ”?!” He thinks the bishop is passively placed at e7 and recommends a Botvinnik set-up in a brief note.
  

What kind of proof is that?
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English sub-optimal move order for Black
12/03/12 at 05:00:43
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I have now played three games that started 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 Be7. I can't find it mentioned in Marin's books (which I want to follow). I seem to recall something about Kosten saying White can play a Botvinnik set-up because Be7 is sub-optimal in this line but I don't have the book here right now. However, I also think playing for d4 would be good, and I have found two games by Marin doing exactly that.

In my last game I continued with 4. Nc3 and after ...c6, played 5.d4 but now it seems like I entered a Keres-system with the potentially sub-optimal Nc3 played (it might be attacked by ...d4). Even though 5 ...cxd4 6. Qxd4 d5 offers a pawn, 7. cxd5 0-0 looks unclear. Black won in the game Godes-Tseitlin, 1996, which maybe could have to do with the rating difference, though. I perhaps should have played 5. Nf3 first, or maybe 4. Nf3?

What are your ideas on these issues?
  
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