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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6 (Read 15496 times)
kylemeister
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #21 - 01/04/15 at 16:16:20
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PANFR wrote on 01/04/15 at 06:59:09:
I think in the ...e6 variation the best plan for white is displayed in the game Vachier Lagrave- Moiseenko, Biel 2013. Aagaard barely touches this in his article (Experts vs the Anti-Sicilian).


That sounds curious to me, since I think of how White played in the first dozen moves as a classical main line.  (I'm aware of this ...Qa5 coming up in recent years, as opposed to ...b6, ...Bb7 and ...Qc7 in some order.)
  
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PANFR
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #20 - 01/04/15 at 06:59:09
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I think in the ...e6 variation the best plan for white is displayed in the game Vachier Lagrave- Moiseenko, Biel 2013. Aagaard barely touches this in his article (Experts vs the Anti-Sicilian).
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #19 - 11/20/14 at 18:11:21
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kylemeister wrote on 11/20/14 at 16:50:46:
I notice that once upon a time Sveshnikov had that as leading to +=, but only giving one bit (a game Kotliar-Birnboim).  A possibility is to transpose to the old line 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. g3 (I associate this with Rozentalis) d6 5. ed e6 6. Bg2 Bxd6 7. Nf3 0-0 8. 0-0 Nc6 9. d4 cd 10. Nxd4 Nxd4 11. Qxd4 Qc7 which has been considered equal.


This is the counter given to the Rozentalis variation in The Killer Sicilian, with the analysis covering 12.c4, 12.Bxd5, and 12.Nd2. I didn't see any huge problems for Black here, who is solid, safe, and without weaknesses.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #18 - 11/20/14 at 16:50:46
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PANFR wrote on 11/20/14 at 15:44:32:
He also gives the line 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cd4 3.c3 Nf6 (the Noxious move, according to him) 4.e5 Nd5 5.Nf3 d6 6.exd6 e6, which he "refutes" by 7.Nxd4 Bxd6 8.g3 (plus over equals). The path to an advantage must be very well hidden though, as white is scoring just 37% after 8.g3.


I notice that once upon a time Sveshnikov had that as leading to +=, but only giving one bit (a game Kotliar-Birnboim).  A possibility is to transpose to the old line 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. g3 (I associate this with Rozentalis) d6 5. ed e6 6. Bg2 Bxd6 7. Nf3 0-0 8. 0-0 Nc6 9. d4 cd 10. Nxd4 Nxd4 11. Qxd4 Qc7 which has been considered equal.
  
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PANFR
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #17 - 11/20/14 at 15:44:32
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tipau wrote on 11/20/14 at 13:18:23:
I didn't know Esserman suggested this line but Sveshnikov also covers it in his book on the Alapin.


Yes, he does. He offers a few suggestions for white, and this harmless one is the most serious by far!  Grin
He also gives the line 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cd4 3.c3 Nf6 (the Noxious move, according to him) 4.e5 Nd5 5.Nf3 d6 6.exd6 e6, which he "refutes" by 7.Nxd4 Bxd6 8.g3 (plus over equals). The path to an advantage must be very well hidden though, as white is scoring just 37% after 8.g3.
  
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tipau
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #16 - 11/20/14 at 13:18:23
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Yes, that's one of the improvements I alluded to.

Still, Black being able to equalise with accurate play in a little known variation may be acceptable to some, so I thought it worth mentioning. The majority of games follow 10...dxe5.

I didn't know Esserman suggested this line but Sveshnikov also covers it in his book on the Alapin.
  

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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #15 - 11/20/14 at 12:51:12
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tipau wrote on 11/15/14 at 22:18:11:
Another idea against this particular move order is 5.d4 cxd4 6.Qxd4!? e6 7.Nbd2 when the natural line 7...Nc6 8.Bb5 Bd7 9.Bxc6 Bxc6 10.Nc4 dxe5 11.Ncxe5 is pleasant for White. This approach has been used with success by a number of 2.c3 specialists but Black does have possible improvements.


Esserman's suggestions in "Mayhem" aren't terribly convincing. We have already said in another thread that Black is at least equal after 10...f6! (instead of 10...dxe5).


  
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tipau
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #14 - 11/15/14 at 22:18:11
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I agree that 4...d6 is a good move, especially for cc. I'm surprised how rare it is in practice.

White can still pick the type of game he wants to play though, which is typical for the Alapin and a large part of what makes it a good practical weapon OTB.

after 5.d4 cxd4 6.cxd4 we're in the main lines after either 6...e6 or 6...Nc6 7.Bc4 Nb6 when White can choose 8.Bb3!? with interesting gambit play or 8.Bb5 when Black will be playing to equalise for a while. I suspect the reason 5.d4 has a 43% score is that lower rated players go for 8.Bb5 trying to draw and get gradually out-played.

Another idea against this particular move order is 5.d4 cxd4 6.Qxd4!? e6 7.Nbd2 when the natural line 7...Nc6 8.Bb5 Bd7 9.Bxc6 Bxc6 10.Nc4 dxe5 11.Ncxe5 is pleasant for White. This approach has been used with success by a number of 2.c3 specialists but Black does have possible improvements.

The 4...d6 line, to my mind at least, is an argument to play via the 4.Bc4 move order. Arguments against 4.Bc4 are another topic Smiley
  

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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #13 - 11/15/14 at 17:38:24
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FirebrandX wrote on 11/15/14 at 15:13:03:
That's terrible, and is effectively throwing away white's advantage.

problem is: in top cc, there is no white advantage if black doesn't want it
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #12 - 11/15/14 at 15:13:03
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tipau wrote on 11/04/14 at 13:13:10:
This is a different line to the one in this thread. The line that was under discussion was 4...Nc6 5.Bc4 e6. 4...d6 is something else entirely.

Congrats on your likely GM draw...


Yes, this thread was about as close as I could get to a relevant discussion on an anti-Sicilian opening for white, so my apologies for it being about d6 instead of Nc6.

Nevertheless, my point remains the same that white has nothing out of this opening. I think 4...d6 really shows black is already quite fine here, especially in cc.

In fact, consider white's performance after 4...d6 in modern cc play:

5.d4  -- 43%
5.Bc4 -- 43%

That's terrible, and is effectively throwing away white's advantage.

  
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tipau
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #11 - 11/04/14 at 13:13:10
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This is a different line to the one in this thread. The line that was under discussion was 4...Nc6 5.Bc4 e6. 4...d6 is something else entirely.

Congrats on your likely GM draw...
  

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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #10 - 11/04/14 at 11:01:09
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As a weak player with otb ratings of national German < 2000 and FIDE > 2000 I don't see your point. This seems to me being an endgame with white playing for two results in otb games.
  

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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #9 - 11/03/14 at 15:41:48
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Sorry to pop in on an older thread, but I have to say that I'm currently defending as black on ICCF in what has to be the easiest Sicilian defense I've ever played, and this is against a 2500+ GM! Check out the move list thus far:

1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bc4 dxe5 6.Nxe5 e6 7.O-O Bd6 8.d4 O-O 9.Re1 cxd4 10.cxd4 Nc6 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Nc3 Nxc3 13.bxc3 c5 *

After 14.dxc5 Bxc5 15.Qxd8 Rxd8, I can already offer a draw and white might as well accept it. I'm wondering why anyone would even play this line as white, especially in a cc game.  Huh It's garbage.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #8 - 12/15/12 at 02:57:28
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Thank you guys. I know that I should play a3 before Bd3. But the real point is that in move order from my 1st I have bishop already on c4 so it kinda destroyed my repertoire Sad
  

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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 e6
Reply #7 - 12/14/12 at 15:25:38
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It's kind of funny for me to see 7. a3 given as "!?", since I think of it as the old main line, e.g. from Murray Chandler's book of about 31 years ago.  Perhaps the general view on it shifted from "+= with best play" to "= with best play" by sometime in the '90s.   
  
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