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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Stonewall with Nc3 (Read 18058 times)
MartinC
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #22 - 12/20/12 at 05:43:27
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If you want yet another move order to consider then there's 4 f3 (as alluded to further up the thread). That's what Watson has as the main thing in his Strategic opening repitoire.

Still mostly going e3, Nge2 etc in time rather than e4 or moving the bishop out first. Well 5 e4 after 4.. Be7 and maybe I guess d6 too.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #21 - 12/19/12 at 20:53:12
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Eclectico wrote on 12/19/12 at 19:41:44:
Thank you for the translation.  It sems that after 4.Qc2 b6, black has more equality than he deserves after playing 1...f5 Smiley 

Do you agree that 4.e3 d5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Bd6 is better for white than 4.Qc2 b6?

I am also playing 4... b6 after 4.e3 so I can't consider myself an expert in that particular stonewall.
2 rules which i try to follow in the Dutch:
1) If you can play b6 then you should do as the queensbishop is often a problempiece.
2) If white doesn't fianchet its kingsbischop then the dutch stonewall is less attractive. G3 makes the push f4 more attractive. Also a stonewall formation cripples a bishop on g2 much more than one on e.g d3.

4.e3 d5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Bd6 is played by Dutch stonewall experts like Gleizerov, Moskalenko, Vaisser but also by strong GM's like Zhigalko, Volkov and even in rapid by Ivanchuk and Navara
I mean as an FM without experience in this system I am not daring to make any statement about a white advantage.
  
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Eclectico
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #20 - 12/19/12 at 19:41:44
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brabo wrote on 12/18/12 at 15:01:10:
Anway I make a small exception by translation the mainanalysis here on your request.

Today the b6-plan leads to balanced positions with chances for both sides which maybe can be regarded against the dubious? dutch as insufficient.


Thank you for the translation.  It sems that after 4.Qc2 b6, black has more equality than he deserves after playing 1...f5 Smiley 

Do you agree that 4.e3 d5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Bd6 is better for white than 4.Qc2 b6?
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #19 - 12/19/12 at 19:33:58
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MNb wrote on 12/19/12 at 17:15:30:
brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
[quote author=031300030E610 link=1355486741/16#16 date=1355914814]but one of the mainideas of 4.Qc2 is to avoid the stonewall as Bf4/Bg5 is still possible which isn't anymore after 4.e3.

Which isn't anymore after 4.Qc2 Be7 5.e3 either ...

Today I play as well the modern stonewall (Bd6) as the old (Botvinnik) stonewall (Be7) depending on whites move order and exact pieceformation. However in general i have a clear preference for the modern stonewall as more active and flexible. This means after 4.Qc2 Be7 5.e3 you only have the choice to go to the old stonewall. White and black are exchanging small gifts (Qc2 and Be7). The question is which gift is the most valuable. I don't know today.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #18 - 12/19/12 at 19:24:33
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MNb wrote on 12/19/12 at 02:17:36:
Then you'll still have to consider 4.Qc2 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Bd3 d6. There is sometimes the nasty threat ...Nb4 forcing White to lose an important tempo. A setup with Nge2 and f3 looks slow in this case and Nf3 invites e6-e5-e4 (prepared by the typical manoeuvre Qd8-e8-h5).


Can you possibly give me a specific line where black plays Nc6 and white doesn't have time to prevent Nb4 with a3? 

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Qc2 Be7 5.e3 0-0 6.Bd3 d6 7.Nge2 Nc6 (c5 8.0-0 Nc6 9.a3) 8.a3 is my proposal:

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MNb wrote on 12/19/12 at 02:17:36:

Of course it's possible to play the same setup against everything. The relevant question if it provides White with optimal chances. I don't think so and prefer 4.e3.


Clearly I am being more ambitious than simple "system" play, since as I stated earlier, I want to keep options of Bf4 or e4 in one move.  Qc2 may not be the best move, but it much less of a "system" move than 4.e3 which makes an irreversible commitment to the rubinstein pawn structure.
« Last Edit: 12/19/12 at 20:25:57 by Eclectico »  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #17 - 12/19/12 at 17:15:30
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brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
I know that the stonewall isn't in your repertoire, MNb

That's irrelevant for my argument. I plan to play the Rubinstein as White iso transposing to the French after 1.d4 e6, so I'll have to face the Stonewall.

brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
but one of the mainideas of 4.Qc2 is to avoid the stonewall as Bf4/Bg5 is still possible which isn't anymore after 4.e3.

Which isn't anymore after 4.Qc2 Be7 5.e3 either ...

brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
White wants to keep maximum flexibility with the bishop

... so the maximum flexibility White is aiming for is not that flexible.

brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
and pays a small price for it by putting the queen (too) early on c2.

I think you underestimate that price. I have played the IZ setup for 12 years against everything (many of my otb opponents actually played the Rubinstein) and imo Black's chances increase significantly if White puts the Queen on c2 because of the reason I gave above.

brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
I also indicated in my analysis that 4.Qc2 threatens to play e4 in one step instead of two steps.

White might benefit after 4.Qc2 b6 indeed, though I'm not sure.

brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
Some pretty strong players play 4.Qc2 today so it has certainly some value

I didn't argue that 4.Qc2 is without value...

brabo wrote on 12/19/12 at 11:00:14:
and is maybe not even worse than 4.e3.

... but I need quite some more before I'm convinced that it is as good as 4.e3, let alone superior.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #16 - 12/19/12 at 11:00:14
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MNb wrote on 12/19/12 at 02:17:36:
So the question is if Qc2 always is the optimal move. Well, I don't think so after considering the game Van den Berg-Burstein mentioned above. All in all it looks like White doesn't gain anything by playing 4.Qc2 iso 4.e3 (a move you play anyway after ...Be7) but does lose something.
Of course it's possible to play the same setup against everything. The relevant question if it provides White with optimal chances. I don't think so and prefer 4.e3.

I know that the stonewall isn't in your repertoire, MNb but one of the mainideas of 4.Qc2 is to avoid the stonewall as Bf4/Bg5 is still possible which isn't anymore after 4.e3. White wants to keep maximum flexibility with the bishop and pays a small price for it by putting the queen (too) early on c2. I also indicated in my analysis that 4.Qc2 threatens to play e4 in one step instead of two steps. Some pretty strong players play 4.Qc2 today so it has certainly some value and is maybe not even worse than 4.e3.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #15 - 12/19/12 at 02:17:36
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@Eclectico: Black doesn't grab the opportunity to pin because the Bishop is unstable on b4 if White wins the battle for e4. Moreover I don't care too much about silicon evaluations. 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Qc2 d6 5.Nf3 Be7 6.e4 fxe4 7.Nxe4 Nxe4 8.Qxe4 d5 and 9...Nc6 looks decent. But suppose you're right and this is good for White. Then you'll still have to consider 4.Qc2 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Bd3 d6. There is sometimes the nasty threat ...Nb4 forcing White to lose an important tempo. A setup with Nge2 and f3 looks slow in this case and Nf3 invites e6-e5-e4 (prepared by the typical manoeuvre Qd8-e8-h5).
So the question is if Qc2 always is the optimal move. Well, I don't think so after considering the game Van den Berg-Burstein mentioned above. All in all it looks like White doesn't gain anything by playing 4.Qc2 iso 4.e3 (a move you play anyway after ...Be7) but does lose something.
Of course it's possible to play the same setup against everything. The relevant question if it provides White with optimal chances. I don't think so and prefer 4.e3.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #14 - 12/18/12 at 15:01:10
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Eclectico wrote on 12/18/12 at 07:03:09:
I'm sorry I had trouble with translations.  Is it well known that b6 is black's best move?  Do you mind summarizing any strategical understanding you have of this system?  It seems that the early b6 allows black to attack whit'es center more efficiently.  Is it a complete refutation of 4.Qc2?

Since my bad experience http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1196887394/23#23,
I am much more reluctant to post here any serious analysis. I believe my blog is a better way to show something without people thinking they can use it free for own commercial use.

Anway I make a small exception by translation the mainanalysis here on your request.


I don't believe the b6-plan is widely spread today. It is only gaining in popularity on masterlevel and is certainly not well known below masterlevel.
It depends what you consider a refutation of course. Today the b6-plan leads to balanced positions with chances for both sides which maybe can be regarded against the dubious? dutch as insufficient.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #13 - 12/18/12 at 11:49:04
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That may well be true Smiley

There's actually quite a bit of detailed, serious, analysis of set ups like that Qc2/Nc3/Nge2 one vs Stonewalls in Scherbakov's triangle system book.

I'd always vaguely assumed that white had to be doing rather well with an eventual f3 and e4 - I'd certainly won one game incredibly easily that way - but it does seem like it's playable for black if he's careful.

The b6 stuff is surely just likely to end up in some sort of Nimzo indian style line. (Playable for both sides). I'd be surprised if black's bishop has anything hugely better to do than swap itself on c3.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #12 - 12/18/12 at 11:11:24
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I play this way as White, Nimzo Rubinstein-style.
What I've observed over the years is that (a) Dutch players have absolute contempt for this approach, (b) my results are remarkably good; of course (a) may be a big contributor to (b)...
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #11 - 12/18/12 at 07:03:09
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brabo wrote on 12/17/12 at 08:36:44:
In a recent blogarticle http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/11/de-onzin-van-blitz.html I touched this line and made some analysis on it.


I'm sorry I had trouble with translations.  Is it well known that b6 is black's best move?  Do you mind summarizing any strategical understanding you have of this system?  It seems that the early b6 allows black to attack whit'es center more efficiently.  Is it a complete refutation of 4.Qc2?
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #10 - 12/18/12 at 06:58:36
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MNb wrote on 12/17/12 at 01:32:48:
You didn't consider 4.Qc2 d6 and 4.Qc2 Be7 either.


4...Be7

I presume black could play this intending a stonewall.  Qc2 is still well placed in the piece setup you recommend (e3,Bd3,Nge2).  Black will be hard pressed to stop an eventual f3/e4. 

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However, I suppose this does call into question the point of 4.Qc2, since white still must play a stonewall with the bishop on c1.


4... d6

This doesn't look like good chess. Surely black is not contemplating e5 this early when he is behind in development AND has an exposed king. Why would he give up the chance to put some pressure on white's center with Bb4?

4.Qc2 d6 5.Nf3 Be7 (what else now that black blocked in the bishop) 6.e4! fe 7.Nxe4

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Here we see a benefit of the early Qc2, supporting e4. If black avoids a knight exchange, the Qc2/Bd3 battery is very dangerous. After the knight exchange, black's king is just plain exposed.  I let Houdini 3 chew on it over night.  He agrees:  31 ply, +=, .42

Perhaps 4.Qc2 should not be viewed so much as a waiting move, but rather as a means of stabilizing white's center (as in the NID).  It seems that white can play the same piece setup both myself and MNB are talking about against all e6 systems?
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #9 - 12/17/12 at 08:36:44
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Eclectico wrote on 12/16/12 at 22:07:06:
... e6 4.Qc2 b6 is a bit more problematic.  Any thoughts on how white can keep an edge in these rubenstein NID/486E61686E79646E620D017 type positions?

In a recent blogarticle http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/11/de-onzin-van-blitz.html I touched this line and made some analysis on it.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #8 - 12/17/12 at 01:32:48
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You didn't consider 4.Qc2 d6 and 4.Qc2 Be7 either.
  
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