(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. e4 ... › Caro-Kann › Mad Variation in Advance
(Moderators: Hadron, proustiskeen)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Mad Variation in Advance (Read 15859 times)
urusov
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 147
Location: Kenilworth
Joined: 08/04/05
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #14 - 05/31/13 at 19:36:40
Post Tools
FirebrandX wrote on 05/30/13 at 20:39:13:


Anyway, I've seen 8.Bxf5 Qxf5 9.c4 suggested as white's best, but it doesn't seem so great after 9...Qe4+ 10.Be3 e6 11.Nbd2 Bb4! when white's pieces are going to get swapped off and black safely catches back up in development.


I agree that 9.c4? is wrong.

In my article, I suggested 8.Bxf5 Qxf5 (the square f5 is not as good as g4 for the Queen) 9.Qe2 followed by a quick c4.  White can also consider 9.O-O!?  It is complicated, especially for OTB play.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
FirebrandX
Junior Member
**
Offline


What would Houdini do?

Posts: 83
Location: North of Dallas, Texas, USA
Joined: 05/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #13 - 05/30/13 at 20:39:13
Post Tools
So I thought I might have a look at this "caveman" opening while tossing some pieces around in Houdini 3, and wouldn't ya know I find right off the bat 6...Qxd4 7.Nf3 Qg4 as the line I'd immediately play in an ICCF game. Sure enough, that turns out to be the big buzz-killer for white. Only layman engine users would be foolish enough to go for the Qxb2 line without having fully investigated it first.

Anyway, I've seen 8.Bxf5 Qxf5 9.c4 suggested as white's best, but it doesn't seem so great after 9...Qe4+ 10.Be3 e6 11.Nbd2 Bb4! when white's pieces are going to get swapped off and black safely catches back up in development.

I'm sorry but, although risky, black is actually going to be better with best play in the 7...Qg4 line. Maybe not winning, but white will definitely be trying to "hold the draw", much like in the 4...f6 Ponziani opening.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #12 - 03/22/13 at 00:03:15
Post Tools
Yeah, I checked your in-depth look. It's good. Alas I was quickly put off by the Shirov-Anand game. After 1.e4 c5 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.h4 h5 5.Bg5 Qb6 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 Qa6! I am reminded of GM Timman's verdict 25 years ago: 3.e5 is an inferior version of the French Advance.
After 4...h6 I quite like 5.g4 Bd7 6.h5 c5 7.c3 e6 8.f4 Qb6 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Rh2.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
urusov
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 147
Location: Kenilworth
Joined: 08/04/05
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #11 - 03/21/13 at 13:43:15
Post Tools
I have posted "The Complete Caveman Caro-Kann," which offers an in-depth look at 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.h4 h5 5.Bg5 -- see here:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-complete-caveman-caro-kann_20.html
It is the most thorough treatment available and includes a bibliography of sources.

I hope to follow up next month or so with an examination of Black's third and fourth move alternatives.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #10 - 02/04/13 at 06:50:34
Post Tools
Ender wrote on 02/04/13 at 00:17:44:
Hi guys! 
After some time I decided to try this 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.h4 variation as white. Is there any source about 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.h4 h5 in NIC Yearbooks or CBM? I cannot find too much on websites so maybe I need "paper" sources. Any suggestions aprecieated. I tried to find articles about 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.h4 h5 on NIC website, but there is no move-by-move search I think ....


Yearbook 100
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.h4 h5 5.Bg5 Qb6 6.Bd3 (An Obscure Gambit in the Caro-Kann - p.113) 

Yearbook 87 
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. h4 h5 5. c4 e6 6. Bg5 (Revival of an old plan - p. 80)

There is also a video series of GM Har-Zvi on ICC about the Advance Caro which probably also includes this line.

... and I am sure some stuff on chesspub
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #9 - 02/04/13 at 00:17:44
Post Tools
Hi guys! 
After some time I decided to try this 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.h4 variation as white. Is there any source about 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.h4 h5 in NIC Yearbooks or CBM? I cannot find too much on websites so maybe I need "paper" sources. Any suggestions aprecieated. I tried to find articles about 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.h4 h5 on NIC website, but there is no move-by-move search I think ....
  
2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #8 - 12/31/12 at 12:43:02
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 12/22/12 at 10:43:49:
The winner of the game published in the Telegraph has commented that he used ideas as published at
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/a-wild-line-in-caveman-caro-kann.htm...

That blog has already been mentioned, but the link contains a list of earlier articles. Black can decline the b2 pawn with Qa6 which is similar to how Capablanca defended advance Caros against Nimzovich.


Capablanca did indeed play a notable game in which he utilized the ...Qa6 manoeuvre against Atkins (London BCF 1922). Yet when he had the chance to do so again against Nimzowitsch (New York 1927) he played differently, perhaps suspecting something, since this manoeuvre was closely associated with Nimzowitsch himself (vs Duras and Tarrasch, San Sebastian 1912)!

Nimzowitsch claimed to be the originator of this ...Qa6 manoeuvre but in fact there was an earlier game from the English player FJ Lee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Joseph_Lee (vs JF Barry 1901). who was an enthusiastic "early adopter" of the Caro Kann.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkG
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 103
Joined: 01/30/08
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #7 - 12/23/12 at 00:47:07
Post Tools
Ender wrote on 12/22/12 at 21:35:12:

Yeah Qa6 is probably equalizing line. I cannot find any advantage fof white after this move


Qa6 was Anand's choice when he was confronted with this line. Regardless of the objective merits, you can understand why he decided not to get involved in the complications given the identity of his opponent.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1624138
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #6 - 12/22/12 at 21:35:12
Post Tools
fling wrote on 12/21/12 at 13:03:45:
Grabbing material is risky, but I don't remember if it is really unsound. Isn't ...Qa6 a good antidote as well?



Yeah Qa6 is probably equalizing line. I cannot find any advantage fof white after this move
  
2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 868
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #5 - 12/22/12 at 10:43:49
Post Tools
The winner of the game published in the Telegraph has commented that he used ideas as published at
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/a-wild-line-in-caveman-caro-kann.htm...

That blog has already been mentioned, but the link contains a list of earlier articles. Black can decline the b2 pawn with Qa6 which is similar to how Capablanca defended advance Caros against Nimzovich.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2113
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #4 - 12/21/12 at 23:03:17
Post Tools
Well the 'traditional' sort of h5, f4, g4, Kf2 - g3 etc stuff after h6 must count as mad in some sense Wink Rather different to this of course.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #3 - 12/21/12 at 20:17:29
Post Tools
Alas play after 4...h6 isn't mad at all.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #2 - 12/21/12 at 13:03:45
Post Tools
Grabbing material is risky, but I don't remember if it is really unsound. Isn't ...Qa6 a good antidote as well?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BabySnake
Full Member
***
Offline


Opening repertoire construction
underway

Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/10
Gender: Male
Re: Mad Variation in Advance
Reply #1 - 12/21/12 at 10:46:34
Post Tools
Caveman attack?

One member on here has blogged about this:

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2007/caro-adv-h4.htm
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 868
Joined: 05/17/08
Mad Variation in Advance
12/21/12 at 10:20:06
Post Tools
There have been a few recent examples of a completely mad system in the 3 e5 , 4 h4 Caro.

One is published by Malcolm Pein in the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/chess/9755189/Sachdev-the-savage-Snowdrop.htm...

The opening moves are 1. e4 c6  2.d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. h4 h5 5. Bg5 Qb6 6. Bd3 Bxd3 7 Qxd3 and now do you take on b2 (and a1) or play something more solid like 7 .. e6? 

Engines like taking the Rook, but that might be a horizon effect. Black will either find a defensive resource to extricate the queen and win or have to give it up for other Rook on f1 after White castles. In the game in the Telegraph, Black was unable to coordinate and rapidly got mated, but other ideas than what was played are suggested by the engines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2025. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge