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Normal Topic Classical Dutch 7..Ne4. Why not 9...exf3? (Read 4272 times)
Markovich
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Re: Classical Dutch 7..Ne4. Why not 9...exf3?
Reply #5 - 01/28/13 at 16:36:15
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I think that 8.Nxe4 may indeed be a strong move.  I was reviewing Williams' December 2010 update here and I noticed a small self-contradiction.  After 8...fxe4 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3 Nc6, he says that 11.e3 is OK for Black after 11...fxe3 12.Nxf3 b6 (saying the B should go to b7, which I find hard to understand).  But on another file, commenting upon Hawes-Bibby, Mallorca 2004.  He looks at 10.e3 (instead of 10.f3) and says that Black must play actively with 10...c5, "otherwise White will play 11.f3 and have a slight edge."  Well, what is 10.e3 Nc6 11.f3 but the position where Black was supposed to be fine?  Which is it, fine or not fine?

Personally I think it's not fine, because White pretty soon exchanges on d5 and then slowly builds up pressure against Black's queenside pawns, and especially, down the c-file.  In that context Black's knight looks badly placed to me.  I looked at 11.f3 exf3 12.Nxf3 b6 13.a3 (White can also do without this and play 13.Bd2) 13...a5 14.Qa4!? Bd7 15.Qc2 Be8 and you would think that Black must have accomplished something,   But 16.cxd5 exd6 17.Bd2 and White has the plan Rac1, Nd1, Nd3, b4 and it isn't so easy for me to see what Black is doing in the mean time. 

After 14.Qa4!? Black also has 14...Bb7 (14...Qd7 loses a pawn) 15.Bd2 Qe8 16.Qc2 but here too White seems to have more to do than Black.  However 13.a3 a5 14.Qa4!? is just a line; it's not particularly essential to my case.  In general, I don't see how Black fights while White just builds up pressure on the queenside and down the c-file.  Maybe someone can give me a chess lesson.

Also I agree with Dean, below, that if 10.e3, then 10...c5 11.dxc5 does indeed look suspect after 11...Bxc5 (Williams criticizes Bibby's 11...Nc6) 12.b4!, a move pointed out by Williams and which he even analyses to the conclusion that "White has some pressure." Instead of 11...Bxc6 or 11...Nc6 I looked at 11...Na6 12.b4! Nxb4 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qb3 Nc6 15.Bxe4 Be6 16.Bg2 and Black doesn't have enough play to balance his IQP afte4 16...Na5 17.Qd3 Bxc5, it seems to me.  Maybe he should gambit a pawn with 16...Qd7 and I'm not sure how to evaluate it.  But it's moot if 10.f3 Nc6 11.e6 is good for White.

So provisionally, I think that these lines with 8.Nxe4 aren't so easy for Black.
  

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JonathanB
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Re: Classical Dutch 7..Ne4. Why not 9...exf3?
Reply #4 - 12/22/12 at 21:03:09
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Dean wrote on 12/22/12 at 17:39:33:
1. d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 Ne4 8. Nxe4 fxe4 9. Nd2 d5 10. e3  e.g. 10.. Nc6 11 f3 exf3 12. Nxf3



An interesting observation.  I can't say I've paid an awful lot of attention to that position.

Again there's a little in the update about it, but perhaps The Ginger GM will look at this in his forthcoming book on the Classical Dutch which it is said will be forthcoming in the near future (it is, I gather, a little more imminent than it has been in the past when it has been said to be imminent).



huggy wrote on 12/22/12 at 06:13:06:
I've been playing the Classical for about a year as my only defence only also, driven by the arrival of my son and the fantastic efficiency it was has with my French Defence.  I play the Ne4 lines and have generally felt the positions varied and exciting, mostly driven my opponent's lack of knowledge on how to play the Classical lines once their Anti-Dutch option is off the table (around the 1800-2200 level).  At the same time though I can't help but wonder if it's stunting my chess growth as the pawn structures feel very similar.  How are you finding it Jonathan?



My opponents are probably not quite as strong as yours.  Mostly in the 1800-2150 range.

I'm coming up to about 50 series games in the Dutch (that's including 1 c4 or 1 Nf3 games with an early ... f5 but no early d4) which is only about 9-10 a year or so.  I certainly don't get the feeling that I'm running down the same lines over and over again.

To prove the point: in the summer I had a game that started 1 d4 e6, 2 Nf3 f5 - you'd think I'd be pretty familiar with that and yet I managed to achieve a lost position by move 7 (yes that's "seven" and not a typo).

Also looking back on my Dutch games in 2012 I see that I've reached a position I hadn't faced before by move 5 on 4 out of 9 occasions.  I also faced 7 b4 - a fairly major branch of the opening - for the first time this year.

On the other hand I did have another: 1 d4 f5, 2 c4 e6, 3 Nf3 Nf6, 4 g2 Be7, 5 Bg2 00, 6 00 d6, 7 Nc3 Ne4, 8 Qc2 Nxc3 9 bxc3 Nc6, 10 e4 e5, 11 d5 this year.  That's probably the longest line theoretical line I get 'regularly' but even that I've only had four times - less than once a year.


That said, I do not what you mean.  Assuming you get a main line position, it is mostly about dealing with e2-e4, getting ... e5 in yourself, finding something to do with your queenside pieces and getting things going on the kingside. 

The variations seem to be based on whether White closes the centre or not, whether you get to take on c3 or not (and if you do whether with bishop or knight) and perhaps whether you switch to a stonewall set-up or not - certainly not the rich variety you might get out of a French or even perhaps a Tartakower.

Still, with the amount I play it's variation enough.  I don't feel like one of the systems players who are trying to play exactly the same game over and over again (Colle, or KIA etc).  Even in 2011 when I played quite a bit more than normal (about 20 dutch games in all) I never got the feeling that I was just trotting out the same old moves.


Oh: i meant to say, I think one upside to playing the dutch from a 'chess development' point of view are the crazy positions you can get from 1 d4 f5, 2 other and 1 d4 e6, 2 Nf3 f5, 3 other.  That has definitely been good for me.






  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Dean
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Re: Classical Dutch 7..Ne4. Why not 9...exf3?
Reply #3 - 12/22/12 at 17:39:33
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I think it is worth noting that white can force a similar position by

1. d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 Ne4 8. Nxe4 fxe4 9. Nd2 d5 10. e3  e.g. 10.. Nc6 11 f3 exf3 12. Nxf3

(Williams' 10.. c5 looks dubious after  11. dxc5 Bxc5 12. b4! with the trick 12... Bxb4 13. cxd5 exd5 14. Nxe4!)

The difference seems to be that white does not have Bf4 anymore (if it matters.)
  
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Re: Classical Dutch 7..Ne4. Why not 9...exf3?
Reply #2 - 12/22/12 at 06:13:06
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JonathanB wrote on 12/21/12 at 19:58:08:
it's very nearly five years to the day that I've been playing the Classical Dutch as my only defence to 1 d4. 



I've been playing the Classical for about a year as my only defence only also, driven by the arrival of my son and the fantastic efficiency it was has with my French Defence.  I play the Ne4 lines and have generally felt the positions varied and exciting, mostly driven my opponent's lack of knowledge on how to play the Classical lines once their Anti-Dutch option is off the table (around the 1800-2200 level).  At the same time though I can't help but wonder if it's stunting my chess growth as the pawn structures feel very similar.  How are you finding it Jonathan?

To the original question, I've not fully explored fxe3 previously as I was very comfortable with the resulting position following 10.. Nc6 of Diermar (2429) - Sadilek (2210) 2011 when building my repertoire.  The line deviates from Avrukh at 13.. Bd7, setting up 14.. b5 and supporting it later with 15.. Rb8 in a position that I'm very happy to play as black. I've also never had someone capture the knight in a serious game though Smiley
  
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Re: Classical Dutch 7..Ne4. Why not 9...exf3?
Reply #1 - 12/21/12 at 19:58:08
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mrbenoni wrote on 12/21/12 at 17:18:05:
Is there any concrete variation why exf3 is worse in the 7...Ne4 line?


A subscription to Chess Pub Daring Defences and a search for Simon William's guest host update from a while back will provide you an answer.

I think Tony would - rightly - be a bit cross if I quoted the text and analysis here.  However, you may be interested to know that Avrukh considers ... Nc6 "is the most challenging move" while ... exf3 was Simon William's main line in his book and later his DVD on the Classical Dutch.

My conclusion from that alone - for what it's worth -would be that ... exf3 is probably inferior but not to the extent that it leads to immediate disaster.


As a btw:
it's very nearly five years to the day that I've been playing the Classical Dutch as my only defence to 1 d4.  Only once have I had to choose between 10 ... exf3 and 10 ... Nc6 because only once has anybody played 8 Nxe4 against me.

  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Classical Dutch 7..Ne4. Why not 9...exf3?
12/21/12 at 17:18:05
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After
1. Nf3 f5 2. d4 e6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 Ne4 8. Nxe4 fxe4 9. Nd2 d5 10. f3

why isn't exf3 played? I see that the main experts on this variation prefer Nc6.
However in the 7...a5 line a similar position may arise:

1. Nf3 f5 2. d4 e6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 a5 8. Re1 Ne4. 9 Nxe4 fxe4 10. Nd2 d5 11. f3

In this position exf3 is the suggested move. Does Re1 make all this difference? Is there any concrete variation why exf3 is worse in the 7...Ne4 line?
  
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