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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Revival of 1 b3 (Read 12003 times)
RdC
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #11 - 01/25/13 at 16:38:36
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kylemeister wrote on 01/25/13 at 16:16:53:
  One might suspect that playing in effect a 2...g6 3. Bxf6 Trompovsky with White committed to the seemingly suboptimal b3 shouldn't be better for him.


It's a different structure with the pawns. You get pawns on a2,b3,c4,d2,e3,f2,g3,h2. There's a Knight on c3 and a Rook on c1. On the Kingside you have Bishop on g2 and a Knight on e2. In the Jobova game that's been published he later played Kf1 and punted the h pawn forward.

I did once attempt a direct transposition to the Tromp with the sequence 1. b3 d5 2. Bb2 Nf6 3. Bxf6 exf6 4. d4 or similar. As you suggest, the move b3 isn't greatly useful in many of the resulting positions.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #10 - 01/25/13 at 16:22:54
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Tempi are not that important in these positions. Also, White's flexibility with his d-pawn can be useful.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #9 - 01/25/13 at 16:16:53
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I don't know why people cite their internet blitz games as evidence of the value of an opening line.  One might suspect that playing in effect a 2...g6 3. Bxf6 Trompovsky with White committed to the seemingly suboptimal b3 shouldn't be better for him.
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #8 - 01/25/13 at 14:44:03
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tony37 wrote on 01/07/13 at 14:13:38:
Uberdecker wrote on 12/30/12 at 16:26:59:
Still, as far as I can see, 3. Bxf6 seems to me the most principled move and the best try for an opening advantage.

My view is that 3.Bxf6 surrenders the bishop pair and gives black a pawn structure that isn't even weak


And yet it works quite well for white so long as white knows how to play the structures from the middlegame. I've personally been playing this line for a few years now, and I find it both fun and easy to play from the white side. Whenever I'm playing blitz on playchess and black opts for Nf6 and g6, I win almost every time playing Bxf6. In fact, going back through my last 25 games in this line, I won 23 and lost 2.

Anyway, the formation I use is with the g3 line as mentioned by the OP. I've found it a very comfortable opening, although one of my losses was to a cheater. He played this strange idea of f5 and then Ba3, which I had never had any other human do before. I got absolutely crushed off the board, and when I plugged the game into Houdini afterwards, every move of his matched the computers choice, including the strange Ba3 move.
  
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tony37
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #7 - 01/07/13 at 14:13:38
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Uberdecker wrote on 12/30/12 at 16:26:59:
Still, as far as I can see, 3. Bxf6 seems to me the most principled move and the best try for an opening advantage.

My view is that 3.Bxf6 surrenders the bishop pair and gives black a pawn structure that isn't even weak
  
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RdC
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #6 - 12/30/12 at 17:17:31
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Uberdecker wrote on 12/30/12 at 16:26:59:
P.S. Which lines with ...c5 were you referring to?


I would imagine this is the reference game. The problem with the early c5 is that it gives away the d5 square for the rest of the game, as Karpov demonstrates. It must be well enough known that only a handful of players have repeated Browne's move order over the last forty years. The popularity of Hedgehog set ups is such that most players prefer 3. .. e6 or the 3. .. Nc6. In the latter case, transpositions to Karpov-Browne can remain possible if Black later tries .. g6 .



  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #5 - 12/30/12 at 17:16:36
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That Symmetrical English line is indeed an improved form for White, but I would go so far as to say that it's clearly better for White after 4. ... ef ; 5. Ktc3 Bg7 ; 6. Rb1 f5 ; 7. Ktd5.
3. e4 doesn't strike me as being very impressive. I recall a few lines transposing to an off-beat Alekhine and others going along Modern/Pirc lines. Can't claim much knowledge here though.
Thanks for the research.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #4 - 12/30/12 at 17:01:58
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I notice that ECO has treated 3. e4 as the main line; in one database I looked at (NIC online) it appeared slightly more popular than 3. Bxf6.

I was referring to this:  1. c4 c5 2. b3 Nf6 3. Bb2 g6 4. Bxf6, which I think is generally recognized as slightly better for White.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #3 - 12/30/12 at 16:26:59
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Well, since 3. e4, 3. Ktc3 and 3. g4 are nothing much to write home about, I presumed that this must be considered the Main Line.
I suppose 3. g3 is the main move-order to reach a double-fianchetto versus ...g6 as opposed to 1. Ktf3 and 1. g3.
Is 3. g3 the most popular move in this position ? With or without an early c4 ?

Still, as far as I can see, 3. Bxf6 seems to me the most principled move and the best try for an opening advantage.

P.S. Which lines with ...c5 were you referring to?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #2 - 12/30/12 at 15:58:05
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Uberdecker wrote on 12/30/12 at 15:29:50:
This has long been the "main line" against 2. ...g6. White sets up in Trompovsky fashion (cf. 1. d4 Bg5 ; 2. g6 Bxf6) save for the pawn on -d2 (or -d3) rather than on -d4. The general idea is c4/ Ktc3/ e3/ Ktge2/ g3/ Bg2/ 0-0/ Rc1 etc. How you actually achieve this set-up is subject to move-order issues.
Anyhow, nice to see Jobava doing well with the Larsen.


I'm not aware that 3. Bxf6 has been considered the main line in the Larsen case; I wonder if you might be thinking of the sort of thing where Black has played ...c5, like in a game Karpov-Browne.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Revival of 1 b3
Reply #1 - 12/30/12 at 15:29:50
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This has long been the "main line" against 2. ...g6. White sets up in Trompovsky fashion (cf. 1. d4 Bg5 ; 2. g6 Bxf6) save for the pawn on -d2 (or -d3) rather than on -d4. The general idea is c4/ Ktc3/ e3/ Ktge2/ g3/ Bg2/ 0-0/ Rc1 etc. How you actually achieve this set-up is subject to move-order issues.
Anyhow, nice to see Jobava doing well with the Larsen.
  
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RdC
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Revival of 1 b3
12/30/12 at 12:21:24
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As mentioned at http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/12/index.htm, GM Jobova has revived interest in 1 b3.

Amongst the games is the sequence 1. b3 Nf6 2. Bb2 g6 3. Bxf6 gxf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 f5 6. Rc1

Checking my personal database, I found that I had played this idea myself in the 1970s. Jobova continued with g3 which I imagine is better than the approach I would use with e3, Nf3 and Be2.

Larsen and Fischer had played 1. b3 in 1970 and later. The idea of taking on f6 is obvious enough, even if at first you only regard it as a blitz weapon.
  
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