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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0 (Read 10715 times)
dom
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #13 - 02/07/13 at 21:00:11
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brabo wrote on 02/05/13 at 10:35:46:
In 2001 I played a boardgame with the same variation against Erwin L'Ami. At that time only rated 2275 but today a solid + 2600 player.


I recorded this some years ago: 15.h4 h6 16.Nh3 Ne7 17.Nf4 Rf5?! 18.Kd2  Xxxxxxxx-l'Ami, Belgique (YB-68-95) and YB is short word for New In Chess YearBook....brabo were you White in this game ?  Smiley

15.h4 Ne7! (I like this move too: delaying h6, vacating the a4-e8 diag, activating the knight on the defensive wing) 

A) 16.h5 h6 (just now, as h5 is "en prise" after Nh3) 17.Nh3 (17.Nf3?! illogic 17...g5) gxh5 18.Qe2 (18...b5 transposing to one line in chesspub private data ; or 18... Qg6)  Nf5!? safest 19.Nf4 h4 

B) 16.Qe2 Bd7 17.Qg4 Nf5 18.Bd2 Ba4 19.Rc1 (19.Ra2 Qb5) Rb8 (or 19..a5 20.Nf3 h5 (Rybka tree) or 20...h6) or 17.Bd2 Rb8 18.Nh3 Ba4 19.Ng5 Qd7 20.Qg4 Nf5 (Rybka tree)

C) 16.Nf3 Rf5 17.h5 Rxh5

D) 16.a4 Bd7 (don't care about fixing the weak pawn) 17.a5  (17.Kd2 a5 just now since now White rooks are connected ; 17.oo h6 18.Nf3 Nf5 Black has now play on two wings ) b5 18.axb6ep axb6

E) 16.Nxh7?! Kxh7 17.h5 g5 as given in previous posts

  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #12 - 02/05/13 at 12:54:18
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Very nice line that with 21.h5, its clear Blacks play here is a delicate matter. My initial thoughts are that 17...Qf7 (as played by Apicella a few times) may be a better defensive arrangement than 17...Rf5, but I am just scratching at the surface really at this point.

One thing is that the Qh3 plan is not so effective then I think - for example if you continue on auto-pilot like before Black has something like 
17....Qf7  18. Kd2 (18. Rh3!? 18.Qe2!?)   
18...Bd7 19. Qh3 a5 20. g4 b5 21. h5 g5
22. Ne2 Qf3 when exchanging Queens must be some kind of triumph for Black, even though the ending remains complex.


  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #11 - 02/05/13 at 10:35:46
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In 2001 I played a boardgame with the same variation against Erwin L'Ami. At that time only rated 2275 but today a solid + 2600 player.

Again I used the idea of Qh3. A fascinating fight despite the clear and less clear errors.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #10 - 02/05/13 at 10:00:03
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Keano wrote on 02/05/13 at 09:30:11:
even though I think Black's play can be improved on in Brabo's game. 

I have no doubts about that. Don't forget we were playing around the year 2000 without Rybka, Houdini or other superengines available.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #9 - 02/05/13 at 09:30:11
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Nice game Brabo, very thematic. I see what you mean about the move-order. Will have to delve into all this a bit deeper. 

In any case it seems true Vallejo's move ...Ne7 waiting with ...h6 does have some point after all, quite a lot of point maybe, even though I think Black's play can be improved on in Brabo's game. 

So it would seem the critical line in Vallejo's move-order is 16.Qe2, which seems to be the most popular also. I also intend to look at the other move order also to try to come to grips with the subtleties of the position.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #8 - 02/04/13 at 23:34:35
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Good point, brabo!
16.Nh3 with the Nh3-f4 idea and next Qg4-h3 and g2-g4 is the white medicine!
I forgot to mention it myself..  Wink
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #7 - 02/04/13 at 17:59:58
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Keano wrote on 02/03/13 at 21:40:11:
If Black is really afraid of this surely he can just change his move order anf go 15...h6 16.Nh3 Ne7, I think thats more common anyhow?

It is not that easy as this gives white the extra possibility of Qh3. An example is shown in an old correspondence game played by myself.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #6 - 02/04/13 at 16:58:07
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Good tip, I must check a correspondence database, its the type of rich position well suited to correspondence also.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #5 - 02/03/13 at 23:02:49
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Keano wrote on 02/03/13 at 21:40:11:
16. Nxh7?!?? Kxh7 17. h5 g5 18. h6 Qg6 19. hxg7+ Kxg7 20. Bxg5 Ng8 21. f4 Kf7 and start running over the other side? Strikes me a bit coffee-house but enterpising nevertheless, has it been suggested somewhere? ...

As long as I know, no!  Smiley
And if you're really interested in this variation, do not forget to check the correspondence games.. Sometimes they are played at a very high level.
I think our forum friend, Tony Rotella, had to study this variation for white, back in 2010. Maybe he can say a thing or two about it.. Wink
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #4 - 02/03/13 at 21:40:11
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16. Nxh7?!?? Kxh7 17. h5 g5 18. h6 Qg6 19. hxg7+ Kxg7 20. Bxg5 Ng8 21. f4 Kf7 and start running over the other side? Strikes me a bit coffee-house but enterpising nevertheless, has it been suggested somewhere? If Black is really afraid of this surely he can just change his move order anf go 15...h6 16.Nh3 Ne7, I think thats more common anyhow?

Agree 16.a4 must be a mistake because of the response 16...a5! fixing the pawn and preparing the nice defensive move ...Ra6. You can see why Vallejo was so despondent after losing this game.

So the whole critical main-line of this stuff must be 16.Qe2 h6 17.Nh3 Bd7 where we need to look at the two attacking moves 18.g4 and 18.h5!? 
This will have to wait for a future post frankly, because I've not investigated it, but surely that must be the main-line of this ...Qf7 system. If Vallejo is playing it he must have some ideas so it must be worth a look.


  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #3 - 02/03/13 at 11:16:51
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It seems 16.a4... was not the best move in this exact position.
White had to play 16.Qe2.. (or even 16.Nxh7!?) if he wanted the full point.  Wink
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #2 - 02/03/13 at 10:52:14
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Thats the one. Thanks Smyslov Fan, apologies for my laziness as usual. What is interesting is I think White was busted here and White was no less than theory head Karjakin. Intuitively I dont like 7...0-0 but modern chess is all about the moves and results. If it works it works.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
Reply #1 - 02/03/13 at 01:29:15
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Once again, we're left guessing what the first moves are.

This is my best guess:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 c5 7.Qg4 0-0. 

Here's the Karjakin-Vallejo Pons Bilbao 2012 game:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 O-O 8. Bd3 Nbc6 9. Qh5 Ng6 10. Nf3 Qc7 11. Be3 c4 12. Bxg6 fxg6 13. Qg4 Qf7 14. Ng5 Qe8 15. h4 Ne7 16. a4 a5 17. Qe2 Bd7 18. g4 Ra6 19. Bc1 Bxa4 20. Ba3 h6 21. Nh3 b5 22. Bc5 Rc6 23. Bd6 Rf7 24. h5 gxh5 25. g5 Nf5 26. gxh6 Nxh6 27. Kd2 Rf5 28. Rhg1 Rb6 29. f3 b4 30. Qe3 Nf7 31. Bc5 Rb7 32. Rg2 Qb5 33. Rag1 bxc3+ 34. Ke2 Nxe5 35. Qh6 Rff7 36. Qxe6 Ng4 37. Ng5 Qb2 38. Qc8+ 1-0

  
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C18: Winawer 7.Qg4 0-0
02/02/13 at 20:47:26
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Did anybody see the Vallejo game where he had Karjakin busted in this line and self destructed and then said he felt like giving up professional chess? For the last few years I have been convinced the poisoned pawn was the way forward but this game has got me interested again in "castling into it".
« Last Edit: 02/03/13 at 01:24:40 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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