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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Vienna or 4 knights with g3 (Read 18536 times)
brabo
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #26 - 05/22/15 at 13:51:47
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New discovery in the Glek which clearly will influence the choice between both : http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2015/05/the-glek.html
  
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Fllg
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #25 - 06/20/13 at 04:55:34
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Interesting. I feel vice versa and prefer ...d5 against both since I like to have more space in the center (pawn e5 vs. d3). The bishop on g2 seems more active here but I have not found a line where this is a serious issue. The somewhat weak light squares around whites king on the other hand may cause him some trouble.

But of course it´s a matter of taste and both approaches (and others) are equally viable.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #24 - 06/20/13 at 00:24:02
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I prefer 3...Nc6 and 4...Bc5 to the early ...d5. The latter seems, to me, to be easier for White to play than for Black. Naturally, you have to play tbat way against both the Glek and the Vienna.
  

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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #23 - 06/10/13 at 14:58:44
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There was also an article on this stuff (e.g. addressing 9...Qf6 and 9...Re8) by Alexander Finkel last year (YB 102).
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #22 - 06/10/13 at 05:02:43
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Citing Lysyj & Ovetchkin (The open Games for Black) Black can avoid this with 10...Bb6 getting a comfortable game. There are also other ideas with an early Rb1 or d2-d4 but in my opinion (based on the above mentioned book) Black has nothing to fear here.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #21 - 06/09/13 at 21:13:10
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g3 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Bc5 8.O-O O-O 9.Re1 Qf6 10.d3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.g4 Bg6 13.Bg5 Qd6 has come up in four games at a fairly high level (most recently, Rahls - Schellmann, Bad Woerishofen 2013), and in all cases, 14.Nd2 was played.  But 14.Nxe5! is good for White after 14...Nxe5 14.d4 Nc6 (there is nothing better) 15.dxc5 Qxc5 16.Qd2 with moves like Be3 and Rab1 to follow.  16...h6 (16...Rfe8 is bad because of 17.Rxe8+ Rxe8 18.Rb1 and White's threats are hard to meet) 17.Be3 Qa5 18.Rab1. Perhaps Black can defend, but White's two bishops and queenside pressure outweigh Black's better pawn structure, I opine.

This doesn't necessarily condemn the ...d5, ...Bc5 defense, of course.  It's noteworthy that that defense can come up after either the g3 Vienna or the Glek.
  

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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #20 - 06/08/13 at 07:16:48
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From Black´s point of view it´s simplest to treat both in the same way:  1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 g3 d5 5 exd5 Nxd5 6 Bg2 Nxc3 7 bxc3 Bc5 8 0-0 0-0 9 d3 Bg4 followed by f7-f5 when appropriate. I think you should start looking here since Black is very active.

In the Vienna after 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 g3 d5 4 exd5 Nxd5 5 Bg2 Nxc3 6 bxc3 Bc5 White can decide to put his knight on e2 but that is certainly not more threatening to Black.

Keep in mind that in the Four Knights Black can deviate on move 3 with 3...g6 playing a reversed Vienna.  Smiley
  
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Mtal
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Vienna with G3 or Glek 4 knights?
Reply #19 - 06/08/13 at 00:21:41
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Hi all,

I was wondering, is there a important difference when playing Vienna with G3 or Glek 4 knights? Is one preferred over the other? I was thinking of getting back into e4 and I saw some nice games with g3 in the Vienna. So it got me thinking what would be the best move order, etc...

Thanks.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #18 - 06/08/13 at 04:53:54
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MTal is starting another thread with the same topic, so I am bumping this back up and deleting his new one since it is redundant.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #17 - 03/20/13 at 19:50:52
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In my view, the Glek Four Knights is more correct than the Mieses / Paulsen Vienna with g3 only because White would have to play the Black side of a King's Gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 f5!? when, if 4.exf5 (is there any other move?), eventually White will have to lose a tempo with g4 so that he will essentially be playing the Black side of a Vienna Gambit.  I think this is what MNb has also suggested.  I have played this a number of times in blitz as Black and it really pisses people off.  Of course, some people stand by the black side of this line, so if you are willing to play that then by all means.

I am also annoyed a bit by the Nc6, Bc5, and h5-h4 set-up for Black, which is much less effective in the Glek move order.

The two systems I mention, by the way, are also the ones I employ vs. the Vienna with g3, so I may be biased.

Glek himself wrote an extensive two-part article on the Glek Four Knights in NIC Yearbook volumes #42 and #43 which is well worth tracking down.  Otherwise Pinski's book on the Four Knights is not a bad place to start.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #16 - 03/07/13 at 09:29:25
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S_F is talking about the OP, not Pantu. And I must confess when I first read this thread, I thought the OP was asking whether there is any difference between "the Vienna" and "the 4 knights with g3." So I did not understand the question until I realized that the Vienna can be played with 3.g3. Although I am pretty sure I understand now what lines are asked about, it is always a good idea to provide the full lines to avoid confusion.

I suppose the lines in question are 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6/Nc6 3.g3 and 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g3.
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #15 - 03/07/13 at 02:43:30
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Sorry, S_F, but I can't follow you and  I have read your post three times. All I know is that Pantu and Kylemeister were discussing the Steinitz Gambit and Pantu mentioned the first few moves of it on 03/02/13 at 17:59:21. In general I sympathize with you on this issue, ie mentioning the initial moves leading to the starting position, but I just conclude that Pantu did that in aforementioned post.
  

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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #14 - 03/07/13 at 01:00:06
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MNb wrote on 03/03/13 at 16:15:25:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/03/13 at 07:13:11:
It really would help if you explained which move order you are talking about.

Pantu mentioned it just 5 posts above yours. My memory is quite bad, but not that bad.


Pantu's comment didn't mention any line with g3. He himself said that was "off topic". I was rather hoping the OP would clarify the lines he meant.
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #13 - 03/03/13 at 16:15:25
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/03/13 at 07:13:11:
It really would help if you explained which move order you are talking about.

Pantu mentioned it just 5 posts above yours. My memory is quite bad, but not that bad.
  

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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #12 - 03/03/13 at 15:14:28
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/03/13 at 07:13:11:
It really would help if you explained which move order you are talking about.


Oh, 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 ef 4. d4 Qh4+ 5. Ke2 and so on.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #11 - 03/03/13 at 07:13:11
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It really would help if you explained which move order you are talking about.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #10 - 03/02/13 at 19:17:04
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Ok, good to know Smiley I might still delve into that in future as I do find it interesting.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #9 - 03/02/13 at 19:12:08
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Pantu wrote on 03/02/13 at 18:51:08:
Are you sure you aren't thinking of 1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 d4 Qh4+ 4 Ke2?  Things seem to be a bit different with the knights out since 4 Ke2 d5 isn't really working in the Vienna move order and 4 Ke2 d6 5 Nf3 Bg4 6 Bxf4 Bxf3+ forces 7 Kxf3 in the pure KG move order.  With the knights on c3 and c6 white can take back gxf3 since Qxf4 is met by Nd5...

It might be there is something I don't know. It's also true it's not clear if white even in the Vienna lines.


No, I was thinking of the Vienna version.  For example I was reminded of Keene and Goodman writing in the 1980s that 5...d6 6. Nf3 Bg4 "firmly refutes White's play."  Apparently some theory has revolved around a game Barle-Portisch 1975 which continued 7. Bxf4 O-O-O 8. Ke3 Qh5 9. Be2 g5 10. Nxg5 Nf6.  Here I see a book from a few years ago thinking 11. Rf1 is fine, but not mentioning 11...Rg8 (given years earlier by Nunn as leading to -/+).

  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #8 - 03/02/13 at 18:51:08
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kylemeister wrote on 03/02/13 at 18:39:41:
I have usually seen that Steinitz line considered clearly better for Black.


Are you sure you aren't thinking of 1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 d4 Qh4+ 4 Ke2?  Things seem to be a bit different with the knights out since 4 Ke2 d5 isn't really working in the Vienna move order and 4 Ke2 d6 5 Nf3 Bg4 6 Bxf4 Bxf3+ forces 7 Kxf3 in the pure KG move order.  With the knights on c3 and c6 white can take back gxf3 since Qxf4 is met by Nd5...

It might be there is something I don't know. It's also true it's not clear if white even in the Vienna lines.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #7 - 03/02/13 at 18:39:41
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I have usually seen that Steinitz line considered clearly better for Black.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #6 - 03/02/13 at 17:59:21
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ChessPub is an obvious resource, especially from the old days with Paul Motwani.  I seem to remember that in one of his books (H.O.T. Chess or C.O.O.L. Chess or S.T.A.R chess?) he analyses the Vienna with g3.

One minor point about the Vienna that perhaps hasn't been mentioned is that it avoids the Phildor/Latvian/Petroff but whether that is good or bad depends on your point of view.

Slightly off topic, but if I was looking at playing the Vienna I would have to investigate 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 f4 exf4 4 d4!? Qh4+ 5 Ke2 when I think white might just be doing quite well but I haven't ever looked at the official theory.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #5 - 03/02/13 at 15:31:07
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Either way, it's a game of chess.  But g3 in the Vienna more obviously makes sense, to me anyway, than the Glek 4 Knights.   
« Last Edit: 03/02/13 at 18:39:11 by Markovich »  

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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #4 - 03/02/13 at 15:07:06
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As I recall, the Glek system was also treated by Glek in a pair of Yearbook articles in the '90s.
  
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #3 - 03/02/13 at 12:42:17
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Well, I've forgotten to mention the books that treat the so-called Glek system (4.g3...) in the Four Knights. Here they are:

1. John Nunn "New Ideas In The Four Knights" (Batsford, 1993)
2. Jan Pinski "The Four Knights" (Batsford, 2003)
3. Cyrus Lakdawala "The Four Knights: Move By Move" (Everyman, 2012)

In addition, I attach a file with all the Glek games (1990-2011) with 4.g3... Delete the .txt extension of the file and open the resulting .cbv file in a Chessbase program.  Wink
  

Glek_System_cbv.txt ( 18 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #2 - 03/02/13 at 12:15:02
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Mtal wrote on 03/02/13 at 05:35:14:
Or do they pretty much transpose to each other?

No. On obvious but important issue is that in the Vienna 3.g3 White still can play Nge2. At the other hand the Vienna 3.g3 offers Black some extra options. The three most important ones are setups with ...c6, the symmetrical 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 and the pseudo-KG 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 f5.
Your answers depend on your judgment of these (and if I have forgotten some, other) options.

The Complete Vienna is far from complete (even to 1995 standards) and should be called An Introduction to the Vienna. As such it's pretty good.
  

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Re: Vienna or 4 knights with g3
Reply #1 - 03/02/13 at 09:48:18
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I've been playing Vienna with g3 OTB for many years and therefore I'm biased, so I can't be objective about the right choice, I think..
Anyway, as for the book list, there you have it:

1. Alexander Konstantinopolsky & Vladimir Lepeshkin "The Tournament's Player Repertoire Of Openings: Vienna Game" (Batsford, 1986)
2. Mikhail Tseitlin & Igor Glazkov "The Complete Vienna" (Batsford, 1995)
3. Gary Lane "Vienna Game" (Everyman, 2000)

I never read a book from this list, though. The only book I've read about the Vienna game was:
Александр Константинопольский & Владимир Лепешкин "Венская Партия" (Москва "Физкультура и Спорт", 1989) in Russian language. A fantastic reading, by the way..  Wink
  
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Vienna or 4 knights with g3
03/02/13 at 05:35:14
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Hi all,

Looking for some advice on the Vienna or 4 Knights with g3. Is one better than the other? Or do they pretty much transpose to each other? How are the positions in general? Any books reconmended on studying these?

Thanks.
  
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