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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System (Read 27943 times)
Markovich
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #13 - 04/27/13 at 18:11:02
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bragesjo wrote on 04/26/13 at 12:39:01:
About d3 Ruy Lopez I started to play it after reading McDonalds book. I tried it a few times and got good positions everytime so I became lazy and stopped there. Carlsens success with it is probebly the reason why its is becomning the new mainline.


Carlsen is Carlsen, and that's why he wins with the d3 Spanish.  If someone expects to outrate his opponent and win by just "playing chess," with no theoretical edge at all, he can take up d3 on the same basis.

Theoretically White's system interesting; it's a game of chess; but it makes no pretense of fighting for an opening advantage.   The idea that the big boys have discovered something special for White is a joke.  I am sure the have discovered some interesting ideas, just not ideas that seriously threaten Black.

Carlsen plays numerous unchallenging systems and then wins because he is Carlsen.  It would be idiocy to immitate his play saying, "Ooh, Carlsen plays this, it must be good for White!"
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #12 - 04/26/13 at 12:39:01
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About d3 Ruy Lopez I started to play it after reading McDonalds book. I tried it a few times and got good positions everytime so I became lazy and stopped there. Carlsens success with it is probebly the reason why its is becomning the new mainline.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #11 - 04/26/13 at 12:24:14
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JEH wrote on 04/26/13 at 10:13:27:
Going back over it again, if I could reboot this process, I think I'd start with a 5. d3 Slowpez (which seems to me to have a little more synergy with moving onto mainlines later than 5. Qe2), and then add in mainline systems one by one. So once ready for the Open Lopez, I can go say 6. d3 (or 6. Qe2), and so on, pushing d3 (or Qe2) later into the game, if at all.

If I was going to think this even further back, and say I didn't want to start my e4 e5 career with the Scotch or the Italian etc, then d4 based Lopez's are another possibility.

If you are going to use the learning Lopez with stabilisers approach, then d3 or Qe2 could be just as good. You could use McDonald's book for d3 and Greet's book for Qe2.

But considering how much these slower systems, especially d3 are cropping up at the highest levels, then maybe they are stabilisers at all  Wink

My thinking is almost precisely the same as yours. After looking at McDonald's excellent Move by Move book, my "Spanish with training wheels" (US for stabilisers) plan has been Bishop's opening (aiming for an Italian) -> Italian (learning other 1.e4 e5 Nf3 responses) -> d3 Spanish -> "real" Spanish, though I'm still on step 1. But the current popularity of the d3 Spanish (is this the new mainline?) makes me wonder if I should stop there...
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #10 - 04/26/13 at 11:13:04
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I'm inclined to think the top players have discovered something they aren't sharing with us. Presumably it's that the Marshall and possibly the new Gajewski lines with a later .. d5 are just equalising, thereby denying White winning chances. Otherwise I would feel that defending against slow stuff is less of a problem than main lines with d4, provided you don't get confused by the apparent lack of threats.
  
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JEH
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #9 - 04/26/13 at 10:13:27
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JEH wrote on 04/24/13 at 12:49:42:
I believe this therapist also offers counselling for those with Qe2 issues...

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1341393550


Although my link was a little tongue in cheek, there's an element of advice in there.

My first 1. e4 opening was the Scotch, then later adding the Italian (playing Bc4 after ed as well) because I didn't think I was ready for the Lopez. I'm very pleased to have got a work out with those openings in my early days, and it's also helped playing 1. ...e5 as Black.

Adopting the Lopez as White came much much later. Back in the day I used to look at White's positions and not understand why with pieces grovelling and wriggling around on the back two ranks and Black's pieces all developed on nice squares why White was supposed to be better. When the penny dropped, I thought I was ready for the Lopez.

I started taking it all on, mainline, but with an h3 anti-Marshall, a la Khalifmann. But although I had interesting games, I thought I'd bitten off too much, and started retreating into initially Qe2 Worrall systems, and then d3 systems.

Going back over it again, if I could reboot this process, I think I'd start with a 5. d3 Slowpez (which seems to me to have a little more synergy with moving onto mainlines later than 5. Qe2), and then add in mainline systems one by one. So once ready for the Open Lopez, I can go say 6. d3 (or 6. Qe2), and so on, pushing d3 (or Qe2) later into the game, if at all.

If I was going to think this even further back, and say I didn't want to start my e4 e5 career with the Scotch or the Italian etc, then d4 based Lopez's are another possibility.

If you are going to use the learning Lopez with stabilisers approach, then d3 or Qe2 could be just as good. You could use McDonald's book for d3 and Greet's book for Qe2.

But considering how much these slower systems, especially d3 are cropping up at the highest levels, then maybe they are stabilisers at all  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #8 - 04/26/13 at 02:39:42
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Daniel wrote on 04/25/13 at 22:47:24:
There's no reason to play Qe2. It just misplaces both the queen and the rook. ...d5 lines equalize forcefully and the ...d6 lines are worse for white than the usual Chigorin as the Qe2 is misplaced (Nbd2 can always be met by ...Nh5! as Nxe5 then just loses to ...Nf4 hitting the queen). Honestly, I think Qe2 objectively deserves a question mark. If you want to be lazy play d3 lines.

It is possible that Short may disagree regarding the desire to assign a question mark, which seems a little extreme. Maybe Karpov too, considering.
But, well, each to their views.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #7 - 04/25/13 at 22:47:24
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There's no reason to play Qe2. It just misplaces both the queen and the rook. ...d5 lines equalize forcefully and the ...d6 lines are worse for white than the usual Chigorin as the Qe2 is misplaced (Nbd2 can always be met by ...Nh5! as Nxe5 then just loses to ...Nf4 hitting the queen). Honestly, I think Qe2 objectively deserves a question mark. If you want to be lazy play d3 lines.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #6 - 04/24/13 at 22:01:09
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Markovich wrote on 03/07/13 at 05:51:12:
I don't think that 5.Qe2 is played so much to avoid the Open as to avoid a vast body of Spanish theory in general. That includes the Open but also the Closed and the Marshall.

.


That's obviously why people play Qe2 systems at all, but the main reason they go 5 Qe2 as opposed to 6 Qe2 is to avoid the Open, surely?

I had to review a book on the Open recently and it seemed to me - at any rate against the repertoire presented - that White needed to know remarkably little to achieve a series of slightly better endings with no prospects at all for Black.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #5 - 04/24/13 at 12:49:42
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I believe this therapist also offers counselling for those with Qe2 issues...

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1341393550


Covers the French too Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #4 - 04/24/13 at 00:56:59
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Markovich wrote on 03/07/13 at 15:19:33:
The point is disputed here with depressing frequency, but failure to understand how to play in open positions is quite similar to not having a game at all, and the avoidance of these positions on the basis that one isn't comfortable with them is fatal to one's chess imorovement. I wouldn't recommend the Spanish at all to someone not yet able to play well in such positions.


Fair enough, but there is an ebb for every flow.  And in my case the question is what should be the greater cause for concern...the open Spanish or the ...Bc5 lines in the Worrall.

It's not so much that I want to avoid X or Y out of a lack of comfort, but rather than since I have to allow one of the two, which makes the most sense to allow?

It's no different than deciding if you want to play 1...d5 or 1...Nf6 against 1. d4.  It's simply a choice.

Having said that, I don't mind reducing the amount of theory that I need to start working on.  I'm a 1700 player who has never studied openings at all, really.  So now I am trying to get a better theoretical foundation.  Well, I can't learn it all at once, so I'm just trying to pick a chunk at a time. 

So I was hoping that other Worrall practitioners might have some input...

That's all. Smiley
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #3 - 03/07/13 at 15:19:33
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The point is disputed here with depressing frequency, but failure to understand how to play in open positions is quite similar to not having a game at all, and the avoidance of these positions on the basis that one isn't comfortable with them is fatal to one's chess imorovement. I wouldn't recommend the Spanish at all to someone not yet able to play well in such positions.
  

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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #2 - 03/07/13 at 09:00:09
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My point of view (for what is worth) based also on reading parts of Greet's book and only a handful of internet blitz games:

a) The Worrall resembles a lot the Closed Spanish lines, while the Open is a completely different type of game (open, dynamic, tactical). Moreover, you cannot learn and practice everything at once. So for these 2 reasons I'd rather avoid the Open for the time being. Later on I may re-examine the option to allow the Open because only some people will play it. So when you also learn the Open you can choose your move-order depending on your opponent's repertoire (if known to you).
b) Now coming to the antidotes to the Worrall, 2 of them stand out: the Anti-Worrall 5. ... b5 6. Bb3 Bc5 and the Open Worrall (the last 3 chapters of the book): 5. ... b5 6. Bb3 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. c3 d5 (9. d3 etc.). In my eyes the Open Worrall is a real concern, while I didn't find the anti-Worrall intimidating.

My experience with the Spanish is that rarely club players play the main lines in full, as there are a lot of good systems if you want to deviate early on (the Open is one of them). If you want to take the bet and allow the Open, at least check out a variation or 2 as this line (I repeat) is completely different than what you already know.

My 2 c  Cool
  

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Markovich
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #1 - 03/07/13 at 05:51:12
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I don't think that 5.Qe2 is played so much to avoid the Open as to avoid a vast body of Spanish theory in general. That includes the Open but also the Closed and the Marshall.

I like the Open myself, but I doubt that many Spanish practioners lay awake at night worrying about it. There is little doubt that 5.O-O is critical and best.
  

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Chris Wainscott
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Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
03/07/13 at 05:14:55
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I mean, how often is the Open Variation played these days?

I'm asking because in looking over Andrew Greet's book on the Worrall System for the Spanish he recommends using the move order 5. Qe2 rather than 6. Qe2.  (i.e. 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. Bb5 a6  4. Ba4 Nf6  5. Qe2 rather than  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6  5. 0-0 Be7  6. Qe2)

OK, so on the surface the idea to play 5. Qe2 to avoid the Open seems sound.  But if you play 5. Qe2 then Black's dark squared bishop isn't yet committed and Black now has several variations to choose from including 5...Bc5 which Greet states is the most difficult for White to handle.

Now, I'm not going to pretend like I am an expert on this opening.  I have never played it OTB, and I have rarely studied it at all.  But I'm wondering where White gets the most bang for his buck...by avoiding the Open Spanish or by avoiding the 5...Bc5 Worrall?

Thoughts?
  
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