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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System (Read 27957 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #28 - 01/17/14 at 09:32:10
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walkingterrapin wrote on 01/02/14 at 14:16:54:
Both the d3 system and the Worral make it a lot easier on black to play their opening.  if white will never play d4 the real threats of the Spanish are gone and you give black a free hand to equalize or win the game.  Sticking with the main lines and the a4 anti Marshall you are walking on the shoulders of giants.  whereas in the d3 you are relying on your opponent to mess up to win. 


Actually, white does not have to hurry with d4, blacks structural weaknesses does not run away.

  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #27 - 01/02/14 at 14:16:54
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Both the d3 system and the Worral make it a lot easier on black to play their opening.  if white will never play d4 the real threats of the Spanish are gone and you give black a free hand to equalize or win the game.  Sticking with the main lines and the a4 anti Marshall you are walking on the shoulders of giants.  whereas in the d3 you are relying on your opponent to mess up to win.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #26 - 05/02/13 at 18:08:19
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In the closed Ruy, the Zaitsev isn't really better for white either. The main line with ...Rxa3 and Nd3 is completely okay for black. Which is why white generally closes the center with d5 at some point in the Zaitsev now in gm games but of course white can get outplayed in those positions too.

Yet another reason why d3 is so popular now. Of course 1. e5 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. d3 d6! is the most accurate though as it prevents the structure that can arise in the anti-marshall where white plays a4 and in response to b4 he goes a5 and if after 5...d6 white decides to put his bishop back on c2 in one move, black can just go ...d6-d5 and is okay.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #25 - 05/01/13 at 11:04:07
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Looking at the correspondence games is how I reached my conclusion in regards to the Marshall. Those games do enough to make one believe it equalizes by force, and there's nothing white can do about it.

Depressing, to say the least.

One of the Anti-Marshalls has to be better than that, or even the early d3 stuff.
  

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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #24 - 05/01/13 at 10:47:34
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MartinC wrote on 05/01/13 at 08:18:00:
Yes that's the difference - there's no doubt at all that the main line Marshall is very challenging indeed for both sides. Just look at all the concrete theory......

It'll be more a question of whether there's anything that's still genuinely usable against really well prepared opposition.


It depends on the way you play. At serious correspondence level, the mainline Marshall is just a dull draw/ not challenging at all:
You just copy the existing theory, and then let an engine handle the strategically very simple positions that occur.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #23 - 05/01/13 at 08:18:00
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Yes that's the difference - there's no doubt at all that the main line Marshall is very challenging indeed for both sides. Just look at all the concrete theory......

It'll be more a question of whether there's anything that's still genuinely usable against really well prepared opposition.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #22 - 05/01/13 at 03:15:35
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Markovich wrote on 04/30/13 at 18:45:34:
Play the d3 Spanish by all means.  Play the Italian with d3, for all I care!  It's your game.  White is White in either case, and Black's game isn't a cakewalk.  But I assert that both challenge Black less than the main lines of the Spanish.


The point of d3 is of course to let home prep be less important than chess skill in a OTB game.

If a strong but lower-rated (i.e. slightly less skilled) opponent has worked through say Gustafsson's Marshall DVD (and has no memory lapses), as a skilled amateur, I won't have an easy time demonstrating anything from the Spanish main lines.

I might give 8. h3 a go (as I am little more comfortable with the other main lines), but my most practical approach (if insisting on 1.e4) would likely be a slow d3 based system, probably Bb5 based rather than Bc4 based.

Even if the position is equal, one can still refuse a draw offer and wager a battle to see who understands the nuances of the position on the board better.

From this perspective, d3 system do present a challenge for Black. The positions may be equal but they aren't automatic draws -- as shown in recent GM practice.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #21 - 05/01/13 at 02:27:42
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MNb wrote on 05/01/13 at 00:09:40:
Markovich wrote on 04/30/13 at 18:45:34:
But I assert that both challenge Black less than the main lines of the Spanish.

Do they both challenge Black less than White's best play against the Marshall?


Either the answer is yes or it's time to take up 1.d4.
  

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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #20 - 05/01/13 at 00:09:40
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Markovich wrote on 04/30/13 at 18:45:34:
But I assert that both challenge Black less than the main lines of the Spanish.

Do they both challenge Black less than White's best play against the Marshall?
  

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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #19 - 04/30/13 at 22:22:04
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I had chalked up the rising popularity of d3 entirely due to the Marshall.

I would imagine there are a number of the super-elite that would kill to find a convincing advantage against it, instead of being bombarded with pro-black novelties that also equalize.
  

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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #18 - 04/30/13 at 20:27:04
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About 100 years of theory, if you have studied old wch matches , Steinitz played d3 vs Berlin in hes match vs Zukertort in 1886  since he got nowhere in the mainlines earlier in this match so the idea is hardly new, only rediscovered. But I dont think d3 is best move vs Berlin, I think d3 is stronger when a6 Ba4 has been inserted since black has weakened his structure.

I dont claim that white has any theoretical advantage and I think the reason why its becommning the new mainline has to do with Marshall, like it or not.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #17 - 04/30/13 at 18:45:34
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It's a game of chess, and of course, you can win any given game of chess.  But it's not critical, sez I.  I didn't say you have to outrate your openent to win any given game of chess with this system; I said you had to outrate him to have an expectation of doing so (or more precisely, an expectation of a plus score).  So I am not impressed that someone has used this to defeat higher-rated players.  Lev Zilbermintz has used the BDG to defeat dozens of players that outrate him.

Either d3 in the Spanish (in normal settings such as after 3...Nf6) is equal, or 100 years of Spanish theory is down the toilet, dear chessfriends.  And I find the latter proposition much easier to reject.  I don't know why anyone would be impressed by Carlsen winning with this.  Of course, his play is generally quite impressive.  But he wins with a whole host of unchallenging systems, for crying out loud.  "White according to Carlson" could not be written, not with a straight face, anyway. 

Play the d3 Spanish by all means.  Play the Italian with d3, for all I care!  It's your game.  White is White in either case, and Black's game isn't a cakewalk.  But I assert that both challenge Black less than the main lines of the Spanish.
  

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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #16 - 04/29/13 at 06:54:42
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blueguitar322 wrote on 04/28/13 at 03:28:40:
Isn't one of the points of 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 (at least as Carlsen et. al. play it) to transpose to the anti-marshall lines usually reached after 7...0-0 8.a4?


It's almost a system in its own right although with very similar ideas to the anti-Marshall. Re1 doesn't have to played immediately in this move order so that gives it a slightly different look.
  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #15 - 04/28/13 at 09:57:21
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While I agree that Carlsen is lazy in opening prepeations, he plays several openings that are very practical.

In my experience with the white pieces you dont have to outrate them for this system to work, I have defeated players that outrate me siginfically.

Also, some of the older players at my local club does not consider Ruy Lopez with d3 to be a "true" Ruy Lopez, they think it is an other opening!

  
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Re: Theory - Open Ruy Lopez vs Worrall System
Reply #14 - 04/28/13 at 03:28:40
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Isn't one of the points of 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 (at least as Carlsen et. al. play it) to transpose to the anti-marshall lines usually reached after 7...0-0 8.a4?

E.g. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 and now
6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.a4 Bb7 9.Re1
vs.
6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.a4 Bb7 9.d3

Considering that these lines are considered the best (or one of the best) ways for White to react to the Marshall, I don't have a problem considering that a legitimate try for advantage.
  
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