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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights (Read 17866 times)
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #18 - 08/17/13 at 14:02:50
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White can try 11. Nb5 and then 12. Rd1 though in the Kramnik game. Fressinet appears to haved killed off this attempt for advantage though, easily getting a drawn position.

  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #17 - 08/16/13 at 13:30:29
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Today in the World Cup (1st tiebreak game) Kobalia was probably slightly disappointed after he tried to play the line against Kramnik himself:

  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #16 - 05/09/13 at 09:59:36
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Markovich wrote on 05/09/13 at 02:24:09:
White's stock in 1.e4 has hit an all-time low if moves like d3 in tbe Spanish and 10. h3 in this line are the best that he can do.

That might very well be the case. And I'm not sure (think of the Lasker Defense) that 1.d4 fares any better.
  

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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #15 - 05/09/13 at 02:24:09
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I fully understand that it's a game of chess and. as in any game of chess, Black faces certain problems. What I found somewhat silly, however, was that a move like 10.h3 should be regarded with so much reverence (as it was, for example, in a recent NIC yearbook article). I assume that some people will disagree with me, but why my point of view should boggle anyone's mind, I cannot imagine.

I don't say I know a path to +=, but White's stock in 1.e4 has hit an all-time low if moves like d3 in tbe Spanish and 10. h3 in this line are the best that he can do.
  

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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #14 - 05/08/13 at 17:37:13
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While we're at it, I noticed that in one of the other GM-GM games with this line from the last week or two, Black played in a way given in Flear's article as leading to equality (as was 13...Rb7, as played by ...Adams).

  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #13 - 05/08/13 at 17:12:13
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Another strong grandmaster bites the dust against h3 in an official long timecontrol rated game, see:

Blacks concept looks risky but I didn't check it with a computer so maybe it is playable.
  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #12 - 05/03/13 at 23:44:20
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Incidentally I noticed Kaidanov today playing 10...Be6 and then getting in ...c5 in one go ...



  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #11 - 05/03/13 at 21:03:12
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With the way chess is nowadays white has no burden of proof unless black makes a mistake. Black is okay, and it is white's task to set practical problems in the hopes that he errs. Those problems are rarely permanent when viewed through the theoretical lens. I see no reason to view 10.h3 in a harsh light when white fails his burden of proof task in the Marshall, etc. If playing good moves in the Ruy Lopez isn't enough to reliably net an edge, then why the criticism of this? Mind-boggling. 10.h3 provides an additional weapon for white players, and it has some bite. That makes it useful from a game-theory perspective. Play it in correspondence and you will likely draw, but the same is true of the black side of other openings white may choose. Modern players need all the options they can get that make the black player work for his half point.
  

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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #10 - 05/03/13 at 16:53:15
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That same position arose in Rublevsky - Najer, didn't it?

But this move already has a great dal of theory associated with it, as new ideas tend to do after about 10 days of their first being played, these days.

@brabo: Surely, the burden of proof must be on White to demonstrate advantage, not on Black to prove equality.  That's the way I see it, at least, when Black's game doesn't really smell any worse.
« Last Edit: 05/03/13 at 18:50:07 by Markovich »  

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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #9 - 05/03/13 at 14:36:06
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/03/13 at 14:09:34:
I thought that Freedman "refuted" the line (meaning that he found the convincing way to equalise for Black) recently in that tournamtn in Germany (was it against Najditsch? i am lazy to check... Smiley ). The idea was to play ...Bd7 followed by ...Qb8 and when i saw it i found it very logical and strong.

I assume you mean
On my blog I discussed 14.Be5 see my own game against Karasik in which I also played Qb8 and 14.Rad1 see game below.
Black has at my opinion several playable lines but I don't dare to state that we can show a forced drawing line for black as white simply has too many options.
  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #8 - 05/03/13 at 14:09:34
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I thought that Freedman "refuted" the line (meaning that he found the convincing way to equalise for Black) recently in that tournamtn in Germany (was it against Najditsch? i am lazy to check... Smiley ). The idea was to play ...Bd7 followed by ...Qb8 and when i saw it i found it very logical and strong.
  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #7 - 05/03/13 at 11:47:20
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micawber wrote on 05/03/13 at 10:58:35:
Well it is always risky to assume that someone played a novelty in an opening that "has been studied for centuries".
So 10.h3 is not Kramniks invention:
The honours go (as far as i can determine) to Tinsley who played the move against world champion Emanual Lasker in 1894!
Besides that there are several correspondence games and some OTB-games that predate Kramniks game.

The discussion about what is a novelty and who can claim it, has been done many times without any clear outcome. Personally I find a simulgame of Tinsley in which he played (very likely) just from sight a standard waiting move against the fresh world champion Lasker, not really sufficient to claim something. Neither are blitzgames or games played by girls under 12 years old. However if I look to correspondencechess then the last 2 games played in 2011 and 2012 are showing lot of resemblances with Kramniks game (not only h3 was played but also followed up by Qf3) . The white players (Cvak and Kruger) are both rated + 2300 so we can safely assume the move h3 was not played lightly. Also we can be pretty sure that Kramnik does look to correspondence games to find new ingredients for his OTB (in fact I also do).

Conclusions.
1) Yes I do agree that the move has been played earlier.
2) Also I do agree that the concept around the move h3 has been introduced a bit earlier in 2 correspondencegames compared with Kramniks game.
3) Kramnik was the first person able to attract attention by the broad public to the concept.

Personally 2 and 3 are for me valid claims for a novelty but not 1.
  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #6 - 05/03/13 at 10:58:35
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Well it is always risky to assume that someone played a novelty in an opening that "has been studied for centuries".
So 10.h3 is not Kramniks invention:
The honours go (as far as i can determine) to Tinsley who played the move against world champion Emanual Lasker in 1894!
Besides that there are several correspondence games and some OTB-games that predate Kramniks game.
  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #5 - 05/03/13 at 06:52:47
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/03/13 at 06:18:45:
I like 10.h3. The queen wants to be on f3, and the Bc1 may not even want to go to g5 (f4, anyone?). On top of that, the luft is useful. It's just a good universal move that allows white to play to the strengths of his position in the hopes of his superior structure counting for something. It offers comfortable play, and that counts for something in its own way.

That aside, I'm surprised it didn't get a thread on here sooner. If I were recommending something to club players, then this is surely where I would direct them.

I fully agree. In fact I see this novelty everywhere popping up around me (which was also mentioned in my blogarticle). It is today a very popular way to avoid loads of theory and preparation while still maintaining a certain tension in the position which permits to play for a win. Yes exactly what most clubplayers are searching for !!
  
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Re: C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #4 - 05/03/13 at 06:18:45
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I like 10.h3. The queen wants to be on f3, and the Bc1 may not even want to go to g5 (f4, anyone?). On top of that, the luft is useful. It's just a good universal move that allows white to play to the strengths of his position in the hopes of his superior structure counting for something. It offers comfortable play, and that counts for something in its own way.

That aside, I'm surprised it didn't get a thread on here sooner. If I were recommending something to club players, then this is surely where I would direct them.
  

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Re: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #3 - 05/03/13 at 05:13:49
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kylemeister wrote on 05/02/13 at 19:26:28:
Well, I'm not aware that the Four Knights Scotch has been considered a "dead draw," and I recall the splash of popularity it had in the 1990s.

"Dead draw"of course only means for the worldtop and not for the average mortal player like you and me.
Besides beginning of the 1990s are already 2 decennia behind us, no? After that I found only 3 games since this splash of popularity which were won by +2600 players (one of them by Nakamura, playing stuff like Qh5 in that period so no reference at all for theory). Last year we had at least 5 games won by +2600 players in this system so I believe this says something about the importance of Kramniks novelty.
  
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Re: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #2 - 05/02/13 at 19:26:28
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Well, I'm not aware that the Four Knights Scotch has been considered a "dead draw," and I recall the splash of popularity it had in the 1990s.
  
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Re: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
Reply #1 - 05/02/13 at 19:13:46
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Markovich wrote on 05/02/13 at 18:21:40:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d5 8.exd5 cxd5 9.O-O O-O and now I cannot understand what all the fuss is about Kramnik's 10.h3.  There was an article about this, treating it with great respect, in a recent NIC yearbook.

But if this emperor has any clothes on, I don't see them.  As Tarrasch pointed out, Black's advantage in the Scotch 4 Knights is that he has the central pawn, and White has just played h3, of all things.

There must be many good replies, but I'm amazed that my data base doesn't contain a single game with 10...c5!?, which is the very first move that would occur to me.  11.Qf3 Be6 and so forth.

Beyond that, Rublevsky - Najer, Latvia 2013 went 10.h3 c6 11.Qf3 Re8 12.Bf4 Be6 13.Ne2 Bd6 14.Rfe1 Qb8 15.b3 Bd7 16.Bxd6 Qxd6 17.c4 d4 18.Qf4 Qxf4 19.Nxf4 c5 20.Bf1 Bc6 21.Nd3 Nd7 22.g4 f5 23.gxf5 Kf7 24.b4 cxb4 25.Nxb4 Ba4 26.Bg2 Rxe1+ 27.Rxe1 Re8 28.Rxe8 Kxe8 29.Bc6 Bxc6 30.Nxc6 d3 31.Kf1 a6 32.Ke1 Nc5 33.f3 Kd7 34.Ne5+ Kd6 35.f4 h5 36.Kd2 Ne4+ 37.Kxd3 Nf2+ 38.Ke3 Nxh3 39.Nf3 Ke7 40.Ng5 1-0.  But instead of 17...d4, how about 17...g5 18.Ne2 d4?  To me that looks fully adequate for Black.

The fuss about Kramniks h3 is that he found something in an opening known for centuries already and was already for decennia considered as a dead draw. If we realise that last year not only Najer and Smirnov (both +2600 players) lost a serious game but even the world champion Anand (against Wang Hao) then we can safely say that Kramnik brought new live to a dead and very old variation (something which seldom happens).

Probably 10...,c5 is playable too but after 11.Qf3 Be6 12.Rd1 Bxc3 (12...Qa5 13.Ne2) 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.c4 white can get via the pawnsacrifice a lot of play which is also indicated by the evaluation of the engines.

Last year this variation already attracted my attention and I wrote a blogarticle about it with some analysis, see http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/09/schots-vierpaardenspel.html
  
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C47: Kramnik's 10.h3 in Scotch 4 Knights
05/02/13 at 18:21:40
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d5 8.exd5 cxd5 9.O-O O-O and now I cannot understand what all the fuss is about Kramnik's 10.h3.  There was an article about this, treating it with great respect, in a recent NIC yearbook.

But if this emperor has any clothes on, I don't see them.  As Tarrasch pointed out, Black's advantage in the Scotch 4 Knights is that he has the central pawn, and White has just played h3, of all things.

There must be many good replies, but I'm amazed that my data base doesn't contain a single game with 10...c5!?, which is the very first move that would occur to me.  11.Qf3 Be6 and so forth.

Beyond that, Rublevsky - Najer, Latvia 2013 went 10.h3 c6 11.Qf3 Re8 12.Bf4 Be6 13.Ne2 Bd6 14.Rfe1 Qb8 15.b3 Bd7 16.Bxd6 Qxd6 17.c4 d4 18.Qf4 Qxf4 19.Nxf4 c5 20.Bf1 Bc6 21.Nd3 Nd7 22.g4 f5 23.gxf5 Kf7 24.b4 cxb4 25.Nxb4 Ba4 26.Bg2 Rxe1+ 27.Rxe1 Re8 28.Rxe8 Kxe8 29.Bc6 Bxc6 30.Nxc6 d3 31.Kf1 a6 32.Ke1 Nc5 33.f3 Kd7 34.Ne5+ Kd6 35.f4 h5 36.Kd2 Ne4+ 37.Kxd3 Nf2+ 38.Ke3 Nxh3 39.Nf3 Ke7 40.Ng5 1-0.  But instead of 19...c5, how about 19...g5 19.Ne2 c5?  To me that looks fully adequate for Black.
« Last Edit: 05/03/13 at 01:41:36 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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