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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!? (Read 14336 times)
Markovich
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #16 - 05/18/13 at 18:43:23
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Vass wrote on 05/18/13 at 16:51:21:
So, as I can figure it out, you seem to find an edge for White in this variation.. And this happens with the exact 10.Bd2 g6 11.h4... moves.
Am I right?


10.Bd2 g6 and then either 11.0-0-0 Bg7 (11...0-0-0 runs into 12.h4) 12.h4 or 11.h4 Bg7 12.0-0-0.  Probably 10.h4 is more precise.

I am not quite ready to claim that White is better, but my investigations seem to show that at best, Black must play very precisely and even then may just manage to equalize.  OTB I would be much happier to be White.  That is with 12...0-0, which is a very risky move. 

12...h6 looks to be the sort of move that admits g7-g6 was a mistake, and I believe it's probably +=, but I haven't looked very deeply.  But Black's best play after an early f2-f4 and later h2-h4 is essentially never to play h7-h6, so White must gain if his early h2-h4 is answered with that move.  So it would seem to me, anyway.

Really, the short answer is "Yes."

If I'm right, we'll see a decline in Black's use of 11...Bb7, 12...g6.
  

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Vass
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #15 - 05/18/13 at 16:51:21
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So, as I can figure it out, you seem to find an edge for White in this variation.. And this happens with the exact 10.Bd2 g6 11.h4... moves.
Am I right?
  
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #14 - 05/18/13 at 14:16:21
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Vass wrote on 05/18/13 at 07:01:47:


Why don't I have that game?!  The Elos are high enough to make it into my db.  What, wasn't it in TWIC?

Anyway, yes, it shows the danger for Black.  I had earlier analyzed the position after 14.Qg4 and I believe that 14...d5 (as played) was a mistake.  Best, I believe, is the retrograde 14...Bc8, which looks terrible but is necessary because Black desperately needs to impede White's setting up a battery on the h-file (the positions with White's queen on h7 and Black's king of f8 are mostly lost for Black), and the c8 bishop will speak for some important kingside light squares.  One line I looked at was 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Qh4 h5 17.Bd3 (Black also has to reckon with 17.g4) 17...Qd6! (this works because Bc2 loosens c4, Rh3 deprives the Q of h3, and any move of the d2 B is awkward) and, after either 18.Bc2 or 18.Rh3, 18...Qf6.  I am not sure that Black can hold after 14...Bc8, but I am fairly sure that more cosmetically attractive moves are worse.


  

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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #13 - 05/18/13 at 07:34:11
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tony37 wrote on 05/17/13 at 10:56:59:
an improvement may be 19...Qf6 20.Nf3 Kb7 21.Qb3+ Ka8 22.Nxe5 Rxe5 23.Bc3 Nxc3 24.Qxc3 Re6 25.Qxf6 Rxf6


It might be, but I suppose black didn't like the four rooks ending coming afterwards..

Edit: 19...Qf6 20.b4!? had to be carefully "investigated", too..  Wink
  
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #12 - 05/18/13 at 07:01:47
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #11 - 05/17/13 at 15:41:59
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Vass, thanks very much.  I have all those games; my main reference for this line is here:

https://1e5.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=377335&b=0&c=377335&d=0

One highly critical line is 9...Bb7 10.Bd2 g6 11.0-0-0 (instead of 11.Ne4) 11...Bg7 12.h4!?.  In my reference, two games have been played, both with 12...h6.  I think that after such a slow move as that, White must have chances of advantage.  However 12...0-0!? 13.h5! looks quite risky (castling the other way runs into 13.Bg5).  E.g. 13...Bxe5 14.Re1 Rae8 (14...Rfe8 15.Rh3 is good for White) 15.f4 (I prefer this to 15.Bh6) 15...Bf6 16.Qf3 and I would sooner be White.  That leaves 13...Qxe5 14.Qg4 and Black is skating on thin ice, though perhaps with very precise play he can hold.
« Last Edit: 05/18/13 at 01:14:09 by Markovich »  

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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #10 - 05/17/13 at 10:56:59
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an improvement may be 19...Qf6 20.Nf3 Kb7 21.Qb3+ Ka8 22.Nxe5 Rxe5 23.Bc3 Nxc3 24.Qxc3 Re6 25.Qxf6 Rxf6
  
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #9 - 05/17/13 at 07:41:20
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@ Markovich
I would like to help with some games that you might not know:



13.Qf3!? as in Nepomniachtchi,I (2704)-Bacrot,E (2705) Eilat 2012 and then 14.Bd3!? (instead of Nepomniachtchi's 14.Bc3) may be of interest in order to properly evaluate this variation.
I am very busy now and I cannot analyze in depth these correspondence chess games, but the fact that white played 14.Bd3 in two games (instead of 14.Bc3) have to be considered, I suppose..  Wink
  
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #8 - 05/17/13 at 00:11:32
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That thread is not quite the same because, after 10.Bd2, it only looks at 10...0-0-0, not 10...g6, which is the new idea.  But the part about 10.h4 is relevant.

I would appreciate anyone's criticism of 10.f4 0-0-0 11.Be3 f6 12.c5 Nd5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.exf6 Qe4!?.
  

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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #7 - 05/16/13 at 21:09:25
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Markovich wrote on 05/16/13 at 15:15:04:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/16/13 at 15:07:24:
...


Makes no sense to me.  Link is to a blank "post message", to me, anyway.


I think I fixed the link. Try it now.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1329489762
  
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Re: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #6 - 05/16/13 at 15:23:12
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Matemax wrote on 05/16/13 at 14:35:14:
Kuzmin (Yearbook 98) gives 10.f4!? as an interesting try for an advantage:

10.f4!? 0-0-0 11.Be3! f6 12.c5 Nd5 13.Nd5 cd5 14.ef6 Qf6 15.0-0-0 d4 16.Bd4+=

as played in Morozov-Chernyshev, Voronezh jr 2006

I think 11...c5 is better here

edit: as pointed out by Markovich, hadn't read that yet
  
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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #5 - 05/16/13 at 15:15:04
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/16/13 at 15:07:24:
There is this thread:

... Edited:
Faulty link removed by SF.


Makes no sense to me.  Link is to a blank "post message", to me, anyway.
« Last Edit: 05/16/13 at 21:10:04 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Re: C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #4 - 05/16/13 at 15:07:24
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There is this thread:

EDIT:

Try this link instead.
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1329489762
« Last Edit: 05/16/13 at 21:08:26 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #3 - 05/16/13 at 14:37:44
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tony37 wrote on 05/16/13 at 14:34:38:
Kaufman gives this line for black in his repertoire, I didn't see anything wrong when I looked at it


Does he really?!  I don't have that book.  I don't see anything wrong with it either.

@Matemax:  Thanks for pointing that out.  I wonder if, after 10.f4 0-0-0 11.Be3 f6 12.c5 Nd5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.exf6, 14...Qe4!? is viable.  Stockfish's idea.  E.g. 15.0-0-0 Re8 16.Bd4 Qxe2 (I believe this is better than 16...Qxf4+) 17.Bxe2 Rxe2 and the forthcoming rooks-and-opposite-color-bishops ending looks, to me, to be O.K. for Black.  When challenged, Black's rook backs up to e4.

In Amin - Shyam, Dubai 2012 Black tried 14...gxf6, but I am not impressed.

However 11...c5!? as in Griffiths - Hebden, Hastings 2012 is quite interesting.  The critical 12.a4 was not played, however.  I suppose 12...a5 with complications.
  

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Re: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #2 - 05/16/13 at 14:35:14
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Kuzmin (Yearbook 98) gives 10.f4!? as an interesting try for an advantage:

10.f4!? 0-0-0 11.Be3! f6 12.c5 Nd5 13.Nd5 cd5 14.ef6 Qf6 15.0-0-0 d4 16.Bd4+=

as played in Morozov-Chernyshev, Voronezh jr 2006
  
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Re: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
Reply #1 - 05/16/13 at 14:34:38
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Kaufman gives this line for black in his repertoire, I didn't see anything wrong when I looked at it
  
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C45: Mieses: 8...Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7!?
05/16/13 at 14:19:22
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Something recent and quite interesting in the Scotch, Mieses Variation, is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 Qe7 7.Qe2 Nd5 8.c4 Nb6 9.Nc3 and now 9...Bb7!?.  This is dismissed fairly lightly in Dembo and Palliser's excellent reference, The Scotch Game (p. 118).  In The Scotch Game for White, Vladimir Barsky is even more condemning (p.165).  But within the past year or two, a number of Blacks have taken up this method of play, and with decent results.  It's even been played at the highest level (see Shirov - Kramnik, below).  I don't believe we have discussed it here, though it has been briefly treated in the updates.

A theoretically significant game, Nepomniachtchi - Bacrot, Latvia 2012, was won by White:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 Qe7 7.Qe2 Nd5 8.c4 Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7 10.Bd2 g6 11.Ne4 O-O-O (Dembo and Palliser give only 11...Bg7, while Barsky additionally considers 11...Qe6 as played in Van der Wiel - Garcia Gilardo, Wijk aan Zee 1996) 12.a4 Ba6 13.Qf3 Re8 14.Bc3 f5 15.Nd2 Bg7 16.c5 Bxf1 17.cxb6 Ba6 18.bxa7 Kb7 19.O-O-O Bxe5 20.Rhe1 Qf6 21.Rxe5 Rxe5 22.Qf4 Rhe8 23.Qb4+ Kxa7 24.f4 Qd6 1-0.

Nevertheless, as pointed out by Victor Mikhalevski in the November 2012 update, Black would have been fine with 15...Bh6! instead of 15...Bg7.

Another highly critical line is 10.Bd2 g6 11.Ne4 O-O-O 12.a4 Ba6 13.a5 (instead of 13.Qf3 as above) 13...Nxc4 14.Ra4 Re8 15.f3 Qxe5 16.Bc3 Qf4.  The complications here are quite satisfactory to Black.  The result should be a draw, as in Scharf - Laurent, ICCF 2012, but Black even managed to win in Maffei - Laffranchise, ICCF 2012.  I won't bother to quote these games.

A third critical line is after 12.a4 Ba6 is 13.Qe3 Qxe5 14.Bc3 Bb4 15.Bxb4 Rhe8.  But Black appears to be entirely O.K., an example being:

Shirov - Kramnik, Wijk aan Zee 2011

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 Qe7 7.Qe2 Nd5 8.c4 Nb6 9.Nc3 Bb7 10.Bd2 g6 11.Ne4 O-O-O 12.a4 Ba6 13.Qe3 Qxe5 14.Bc3 Bb4 15.Bxb4 Rhe8 16.f3 d5 17.a5 Nxc4 18.Qxa7 Qxb2 19.Qxa6+ Kd7 20.Rd1 Qxb4+ 21.Kf2 Rxe4 22.fxe4 Qc5+ 23.Ke1 Qb4+ 24.Kf2 Qc5+ 25.Ke1 Nb2 26.exd5 Qc3+ 27.Rd2 Qc1+ 28.Ke2 Re8+ 29.Kf3 Qxd2 30.Qxc6+ Kd8 31.Qf6+ Re7 32.Kg4 Nd1 33.Qh8+ Kd7 34.Bb5+ c6 35.Bxc6+ Kc7 36.d6+ Qxd6 37.Rxd1 Qxd1+ 38.Bf3 h5+ 39.Kg3 Qe1+ 40.Kh3 Qe6+ 41.Kh4 g5+ 42.Kxg5 Qg6+ 43.Kf4 f6 0-1.

Alternatives to 12.a4 do not appear to be very challenging for Black.  Black's very natural method of play in this line is quite attractive, and the ball, as they say over and over again in these theoretical discussions, is in White's court.
  

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