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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch - White Seems Better (Read 92713 times)
brabo
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #86 - 03/11/18 at 19:40:30
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MNb wrote on 03/11/18 at 08:35:47:
I'd be OK with 20.Bg2 Qf5 eg 21.Qc2 Qf2+ 22.Kh1 Qe2 with a messy position

23.Nd3 Bd6 24.Re1 Qh5 24.Qd1 Qf5 25.Rf1 Qg5 26.Rxf8 Bxf8 27.Qc1 Qf5 28.Nf4 and white wins an important pawn.
Nowadays engines have become so strong that many messy positions can be solved.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #85 - 03/11/18 at 08:35:47
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I'd be OK with 20.Bg2 Qf5 eg 21.Qc2 Qf2+ 22.Kh1 Qe2 with a messy position but indeed 17.Ne1 avoids this counterplay. When I feel like (and that's unpredictable) I'll take a look at 13...a5.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #84 - 03/11/18 at 07:00:53
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MNb wrote on 03/10/18 at 10:05:09:
brabo wrote on 03/07/18 at 10:58:51:
16.a3 Rf7 17.cxd5 exd5 18.Ne1 Bf6 19.Nd3 Nd8 20.Qxd7 Rxd7 21.Nf4 c6 22.h4
Here I sugget 18...Rxf1+ (iso 18...Bf6) 19.Bxf1 Rf8 20.Nd3 Qf5 21.Nf4 g5 22.Bh3 Qf6 23.Nf4 Kg7 with a complicated position (but I don't dispute "There remains a slight disadvantage for Black in these variations").

20.Bg2 is likely stronger. Also inverting the move-order with 17.Ne1 Bf6 18.cxd5 exd5 is possible. 17...Rxf1 is less attractive now.

MNb wrote on 03/10/18 at 10:05:09:
Don't you think analyzing and trying to understand complicated lines always will let you play better, even if you'll never play those particular lines?

Studying seriously chess will of course benefit your general understanding. I was only referring to the pure parroting skills of some theoreticians. On the other hand there exists a small risk of mixing lines if you study a lot of openings.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #83 - 03/10/18 at 10:05:09
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My interest is not merely abstract; I would like the Dutch to be playable (ie enabling me to play for a win, even if I would be objectively a bit worse) but run into too many lines that leave Black struggling for a draw. It's like the Kieler Gambit.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/04/18 at 08:01:34:
After 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 I'd prefer 15...a5 (as this b2-b4 attack is so disrupting in many lines), for example 16.Bh3 Rf6 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne1 Rxf1+ 20.Kxf1 Rf8+ 21.Kg1 Nd8 22.Bxb7 Nxb7 23.Qc6 Qxc6 24.Rxc6 Bd6 25.Nd3 Kf7! and with Black's king arriving in the center, White hasn't much.

Like Brabo I think 19.Ne5 a better try. So I wondered about 16...Rad8 (I don't really understand 16...Rf6) and 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne5?! is met with the surprising b5! After 19.Ne1 Black wins a tempo with Rxf1+. Best seems 19.Qc4.

brabo wrote on 03/07/18 at 10:58:51:
16.a3 Rf7 17.cxd5 exd5 18.Ne1 Bf6 19.Nd3 Nd8 20.Qxd7 Rxd7 21.Nf4 c6 22.h4
Here I sugget 18...Rxf1+ (iso 18...Bf6) 19.Bxf1 Rf8 20.Nd3 Qf5 21.Nf4 g5 22.Bh3 Qf6 23.Nf4 Kg7 with a complicated position (but I don't dispute "There remains a slight disadvantage for Black in these variations").
Unfortunately I have nothing to add to the interesting 13...a5 lines at the moment.

brabo wrote on 03/07/18 at 10:58:51:
(yes I do analyze openings while no intention to ever play them which again contradicts that I think studying openings will let me play better).

Don't you think analyzing and trying to understand complicated lines always will let you play better, even if you'll never play those particular lines?
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #82 - 03/09/18 at 22:56:52
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My interest in the Classical Dutch is "abstract", just like yours and MNb's. There are alternatives for Dutch players, which are more flexible and thus better suited to test an opponent. Yes, Black should survive, but he is mainly reacting to White's ideas.   

brabo wrote on 03/07/18 at 10:58:51:
13...Bb7 14.Rc1 Qd7 15.Qa4 a5 (This is an improvement but white still has some advantage)
16.a3 Rf7 17.cxd5 exd5 18.Ne1 Bf6 19.Nd3 Nd8 20.Qxd7 Rxd7 21.Nf4 c6 22.h4
16.Bh3 Rf6 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne5 (I like this more than your 19.Ne1) Rxf1+ 20.Rxf1 Nxe5 21.Bxb7 Rf8 22.Rxf8 Bxf8 23.Qe8

In the last line, Black can also play 22...Kxf8 23.Qc2 Ng6 followed by Kf7. White's two bishops are nice to have, but a win is unlikely.

brabo wrote on 03/07/18 at 10:58:51:
13...a5 (This is indeed more accurate. I already had noticed this move in several lines but as stated earlier didn't dig deeper until now)
14.Qa4 Bb7 15.Rac1 Qe8 and now 16.Bh3 and 16.cxd5 exd5 17.a3 Kh8 18.Qc2 are very difficult to evaluate properly but definitely are no easy equality for black
14.Rc1 Ba6 15.cxd5 Bxf1 16.Qxf1 Qxd5 is also very interesting. The engines contradict each other.
14.Rf2 Bb7 and now I looked at 15.Be1, 15.b3 and 15.Qb3. Black has to play very accurately against all three lines but possibly can equalize on the long run.

Lots of options for White, yes. My impression is that Black has solved most of his opening problems. For example 14.Rf2 Bb7 15.Qb3 dxc4 16.Qxc4 Qd5 17.Qa4 Qd6 18.a3 Rf7 19.e4 Rxf3!?, just to give one line where Black's pieces are cooperating as they should.

And it is fascinating to watch how many Stockfish analyses end with bishops of different colours...  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #81 - 03/07/18 at 10:58:51
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/04/18 at 08:01:34:
Thanks for your interesting analysis, Brabo. After 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 I'd prefer 15...a5 (as this b2-b4 attack is so disrupting in many lines), for example 16.Bh3 Rf6 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne1 Rxf1+ 20.Kxf1 Rf8+ 21.Kg1 Nd8 22.Bxb7 Nxb7 23.Qc6 Qxc6 24.Rxc6 Bd6 25.Nd3 Kf7! and with Black's king arriving in the center, White hasn't much.

There remains a slight disadvantage for Black in these variations. It seems to me, however, that the earlier move 13...Bb7? is inaccurate. In some lines Black might want to play Bc8-a6. Thus it seems more urgent to play 13...a5 at once, to take White's threat b2-b4 out of the position. For example 14.cxd5 (14.Rf2 Bb7 followed by dxc4) 14...exd5 15.Qb3 Kh8 16.Rac1 Bb7, and now:
(a) 17.Nh4 Rxf1+ 18.Rxf1 Ba6 19.Rf5 Bc4 20.Qc2 g6 =.
(b) 17.Ne1 Rxf1+ 18.Kxf1 Nb8 19.Kg1 c6 20.e4 dxe4 21.Be3 a4, and again it's an open fight, about =.

Hi Stefan, thanks for your excellent analysis. You clearly put quite some effort in it as it definitely improves on what I already analyzed which already took quite some of my time.
Now I hadn't intended to go in correspondence-analysis-modus as this was just some fun (yes I do analyze openings while no intention to ever play them which again contradicts that I think studying openings will let me play better). Still your work deserves a reply so I went the last couple of days through a myriad of very complicated lines.

13...Bb7 14.Rc1 Qd7 15.Qa4 a5 (This is an improvement but white still has some advantage)
16.a3 Rf7 17.cxd5 exd5 18.Ne1 Bf6 19.Nd3 Nd8 20.Qxd7 Rxd7 21.Nf4 c6 22.h4
16.Bh3 Rf6 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne5 (I like this more than your 19.Ne1) Rxf1+ 20.Rxf1 Nxe5 21.Bxb7 Rf8 22.Rxf8 Bxf8 23.Qe8

13...a5 (This is indeed more accurate. I already had noticed this move in several lines but as stated earlier didn't dig deeper until now)
14.Qa4 Bb7 15.Rac1 Qe8 and now 16.Bh3 and 16.cxd5 exd5 17.a3 Kh8 18.Qc2 are very difficult to evaluate properly but definitely are no easy equality for black
14.Rc1 Ba6 15.cxd5 Bxf1 16.Qxf1 Qxd5 is also very interesting. The engines contradict each other.
14.Rf2 Bb7 and now I looked at 15.Be1, 15.b3 and 15.Qb3. Black has to play very accurately against all three lines but possibly can equalize on the long run.

So overall conclusion yes I do have to admit that I am not sure anymore if this special anti-classical Dutch-line guarantees an advantage. For sure black will be put under pressure but a perfect defense will maybe hold.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #80 - 03/04/18 at 20:31:00
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brabo wrote on 03/04/18 at 20:12:58:
My experience of using standard games from e.g. the megadatabase to study an opening is that in 95% of the cases the played moves won't improve upon the analysis of an engine. Besides I am only looking at games of +2300 players. Nevertheless I still think it does make sense to also look to those "weak" games not from theoretical but from practical point of view. Some of the refutations are far from evident and spending some time with an engine to detect them can become later useful for practice.
Concerning the game Sbarra-Castaldo I had in my notes 14.Qd3 c6 and now the novelty 15.Bf2 with a clear advantage for white.

I had also noticed that 15.Bf2 was a likely improvement on 15.Bf4?!, but I didn't want to get too far into specifics now. Not because it's not interesting, but I'm just really busy these days and don't have time for serious opening analysis and discussion, unfortunately.

Even without getting specific I'm spending too much time posting and reading on this forum as it is...  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #79 - 03/04/18 at 20:12:58
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Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 19:13:46:
MNb wrote on 03/04/18 at 16:23:19:
Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:56:22:
But why can't White calmly delay f3 with 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3, followed by either f3 or by Rc1 and a later f3?

As about everything is playable for White this is a somewhat silly question: of course White can and of course Black must take it seriously. There are only few games after 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Bf6 and only 12.f3 exf3 13.Nxf3 Ne7 ended as a draw in Sbarra-Castaldo, Ivfrea 2005.

The drawn game you mention is one of the very few times White failed to win with 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 on my database, and even there White had a nice advantage when he took the draw.

My experience of using standard games from e.g. the megadatabase to study an opening is that in 95% of the cases the played moves won't improve upon the analysis of an engine. Besides I am only looking at games of +2300 players. Nevertheless I still think it does make sense to also look to those "weak" games not from theoretical but from practical point of view. Some of the refutations are far from evident and spending some time with an engine to detect them can become later useful for practice.
Concerning the game Sbarra-Castaldo I had in my notes 14.Qd3 c6 and now the novelty 15.Bf2 with a clear advantage for white.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #78 - 03/04/18 at 19:56:29
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Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:56:22:
But after 7...a5 8.b3 Williams, Reinderman and other strong players have preferred not 8...Qe8, but 8...Ne4, and only after 9.Bb2 Nxc3 10.Bxc3 does Black play 10...Qe8. In The Killer Dutch Williams even departs from the standard 10...Qe8 (because he concedes Avrukh's 11.Ne1 is slightly better for White), suggesting 10...Nd7!? instead. I guess you're aware of all of this.

My notes tell that after 10...Nd7 there is 11.Qe1 which not only threatens Bxa5 but also the strategic very strong e4. Black can't solve both problems properly.
Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:56:22:
In the 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 main line it's fun to analyze the sharp lines with 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3. But why can't White calmly delay f3 with 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3, followed by either f3 or by Rc1 and a later f3? This setup has been known since at least 2004 and has scored very well for White in OTB games, but both Simon Williams and this forum keep ignoring it as fas as I'm aware. I could have brought this up years ago, but decided to wait and see if anyone else mentioned it.

I already stated earlier that black should not underestimate 9.Ne1. I didn't tell why but you hit the nail. I had as mainline 9...d5 10.Be3 Nd7 11.f3 dxc4 12.Qc2 b5 13.Qxe4 Nb6 14.f4 Nd5 and Komodo 11 says black is hanging on while Stockfish says white is much better. This position needs more study to get clarified but I didn't want to bother about it. We are already far from any known game and besides black has still problems in other lines.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #77 - 03/04/18 at 19:13:46
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MNb wrote on 03/04/18 at 16:23:19:
Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:56:22:
But why can't White calmly delay f3 with 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3, followed by either f3 or by Rc1 and a later f3?

As about everything is playable for White this is a somewhat silly question: of course White can and of course Black must take it seriously. There are only few games after 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Bf6 and only 12.f3 exf3 13.Nxf3 Ne7 ended as a draw in Sbarra-Castaldo, Ivfrea 2005.

It's not silly at all. This line seems no worse than 9.Nd2, it has a great score in practice, and it allows White to skip some sharp theory. The drawn game you mention is one of the very few times White failed to win with 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 on my database, and even there White had a nice advantage when he took the draw.

MNb wrote on 03/04/18 at 16:23:19:
Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:56:22:
I could have brought this up years ago, but decided to wait and see if anyone else mentioned it.

Then you could have expected that the discussion would focus on 9.Nd2 etc.

Exactly. I'm happy that 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 hasn't been discussed more seriously and become better-known; I could benefit from that from both sides of the board. Maybe Williams and other 7...Ne4 specialists have known about it and taken the same attitude. But it's still surprising nobody is discussing it when it's been the choice of strong GMs like Nogueiras and Sumets.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #76 - 03/04/18 at 16:23:19
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Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:56:22:
But why can't White calmly delay f3 with 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3, followed by either f3 or by Rc1 and a later f3?

As about everything is playable for White this is a somewhat silly question: of course White can and of course Black must take it seriously. There are only few games after 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Bf6 and only 12.f3 exf3 13.Nxf3 Ne7 ended as a draw in Sbarra-Castaldo, Ivfrea 2005.


Stigma wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:56:22:
I could have brought this up years ago, but decided to wait and see if anyone else mentioned it.

Then you could have expected that the discussion would focus on 9.Nd2 etc.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #75 - 03/04/18 at 10:56:22
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brabo wrote on 02/28/18 at 19:22:02:
Stigma wrote on 02/28/18 at 18:13:53:
the line I tried hardest to get to work in the past was 7...a5.

I concentrated at 8.b3 also the choice of Jan Gustafsson against Magnus Carlsen. The resulting positions look very depressing for black. Because of it I didn't look at other alternatives for white at move 8 so possibly there is even something stronger.


That's not strictly true: If the Gustafsson-Carlsen is given correctly on your blog, the move order there was 7...Qe8 8.b3 a5. But after 7...a5 8.b3 Williams, Reinderman and other strong players have preferred not 8...Qe8, but 8...Ne4, and only after 9.Bb2 Nxc3 10.Bxc3 does Black play 10...Qe8. In The Killer Dutch Williams even departs from the standard 10...Qe8 (because he concedes Avrukh's 11.Ne1 is slightly better for White), suggesting 10...Nd7!? instead. I guess you're aware of all of this.

In the 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 main line it's fun to analyze the sharp lines with 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3. But why can't White calmly delay f3 with 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3, followed by either f3 or by Rc1 and a later f3? This setup has been known since at least 2004 and has scored very well for White in OTB games, but both Simon Williams and this forum keep ignoring it as fas as I'm aware. I could have brought this up years ago, but decided to wait and see if anyone else mentioned it.
  

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Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #74 - 03/04/18 at 08:01:34
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brabo wrote on 03/01/18 at 22:19:40:
MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 16:36:02:
Black can offer a pawn for counterplay with 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 Rae8 16.b4 dxc4 17.b5 Nd8. White probably still has an edge, but the counterplay may make it a lot less nagging.

But it is white in your line that is sacrificing a pawn. Besides the engines consider 16.Ne1 and 16. cxd5 as stronger.

Thanks for your interesting analysis, Brabo. After 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 I'd prefer 15...a5 (as this b2-b4 attack is so disrupting in many lines), for example 16.Bh3 Rf6 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne1 Rxf1+ 20.Kxf1 Rf8+ 21.Kg1 Nd8 22.Bxb7 Nxb7 23.Qc6 Qxc6 24.Rxc6 Bd6 25.Nd3 Kf7! and with Black's king arriving in the center, White hasn't much.

There remains a slight disadvantage for Black in these variations. It seems to me, however, that the earlier move 13...Bb7? is inaccurate. In some lines Black might want to play Bc8-a6. Thus it seems more urgent to play 13...a5 at once, to take White's threat b2-b4 out of the position. For example 14.cxd5 (14.Rf2 Bb7 followed by dxc4) 14...exd5 15.Qb3 Kh8 16.Rac1 Bb7, and now:
(a) 17.Nh4 Rxf1+ 18.Rxf1 Ba6 19.Rf5 Bc4 20.Qc2 g6 =.
(b) 17.Ne1 Rxf1+ 18.Kxf1 Nb8 19.Kg1 c6 20.e4 dxe4 21.Be3 a4, and again it's an open fight, about =.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #73 - 03/02/18 at 07:53:38
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No, it's not a sacrifice as Black cannot prevent White from winning two pawns back: 18.Ne5 Rxf1+ 19.Rxf1 Qc8 20.Qxa7 (not necesserily best) and later pawn c4 will fall as well.
16.cxd5 exd5 17.Ne1 Rxf1+ 18.Bxf1 Rf8 19.Nd3 Qf5 allows Black counterplay.
So 16.Ne1 looks best. Black's problems on the queenside don't run away and Bg5 17.Rxf8+ Rxf8 18.Nd3 Rf7 19.cxd5 exd5 20.Nf4 gives Black the kind of passive position I'd want to avoid with the Dutch.

Quote:
Anyway I can't of course refute that you find this e3 stuff playable for black in OTB.

You can by robbing Black from all counterplay.

Quote:
I already made up my mind not to play this opening but the pure theoretical analysis still fascinates me.

In corr. chess I don't play the Dutch anymore either.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #72 - 03/01/18 at 22:19:40
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MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 16:36:02:
Black can offer a pawn for counterplay with 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 Rae8 16.b4 dxc4 17.b5 Nd8. White probably still has an edge, but the counterplay may make it a lot less nagging.

But it is white in your line that is sacrificing a pawn. Besides the engines consider 16.Ne1 and 16. cxd5 as stronger.
Anyway I can't of course refute that you find this e3 stuff playable for black in OTB. I already made up my mind not to play this opening but the pure theoretical analysis still fascinates me.
  
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