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Normal Topic English v Gruenfeld (Read 5855 times)
JonathanB
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Re: English v Gruenfeld
Reply #6 - 05/24/13 at 18:52:46
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kylemeister wrote on 05/22/13 at 14:48:47:
Reminds me of a game of Ulf Andersson's in which Black, in the ...g6 version, immediately proceeded to play ...c5?! after the queen exchange.


Andersson-Tempone, I think
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1019906


I suspect going for the queen exchange give White nothing.  Objectively speaking, that is.  It's more a question of taste - of middlegame type and preference regarding highly theoretical lines.

Drawish?  Maybe in some ways.  But compared the main line Grunfelds where some lines burn out to an immediate draw.  You won't get that with dxc3.

Unfortunately - as Roger knows - my experience with dxc3 as White is that it's *not* drawish.  I lost both times I tried it. Cry
  

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MartinC
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Re: English v Gruenfeld
Reply #5 - 05/23/13 at 20:03:03
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Having checked my (very brief!) notes, the thing that maybe seems to give white a bit more traction is 6.. c5 instead of 6 .. Bg7. 7 Bb5+ ^ Bd7 8 Rb1 or 7.. Nd7 8 Ba3 etc. Black can even drop a pawn surprisingly easily.

Which is, iirc, actually the direct opposite of what gets mentioned in the really old books. Watson's books on this stuff, Bagirov etc.

The delayed Rb1 idea does allow Nc6, but you can still I think force through d4. Something like: 6 .. Bg7 7 Be2 c5 8 o-o Nc6 9 Ba3 Qa5 10 Qb3 ^ Rad1 and d4. (9.. b6 seems to maybe allow d4 anyway.). Not fantastic for white of course but not terrible. Maybe 7 Ba3 is more logical.


Maybe black can get away with stamping on d4 with e5 at some point.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: English v Gruenfeld
Reply #4 - 05/22/13 at 14:48:47
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I think 6. dc Qxd1+ 7. Kxd1 has long been considered to offer White fewer chances than the version with ...c5 instead of ...g6.  Reminds me of a game of Ulf Andersson's in which Black, in the ...g6 version, immediately proceeded to play ...c5?! after the queen exchange.  (In the ...g6 version, I think the standard equalizing approach involves such moves as ...f6, ...e5 and ...Nd7, meeting Be3 with ...Bc5.)
  
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tony37
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Re: English v Gruenfeld
Reply #3 - 05/22/13 at 12:21:07
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MartinC wrote on 05/22/13 at 11:15:50:
Some of the older books suggest some ideas with Ba3 and things to stop c5. I don't think I've seen it mentioned/discussed in recent times. There must be some scope there.

I actually just tried that in a correspondence game but it didn't really work, but I still think that white has some chances of an advantage in this 7.Ba3 line while in a normal Grünfeld 7.Ba3 Nd7 8.Nf3 c5 immediately equalizes



MartinC wrote on 05/22/13 at 11:15:50:
One very logical option would be to try to get castled first, so you can play a Rb1 style exchange variation without first losing the a2 pawn.

the problem here is that black can play Nc6 without being hit by d5
  
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RdC
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Re: English v Gruenfeld
Reply #2 - 05/22/13 at 11:34:24
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MartinC wrote on 05/22/13 at 11:15:50:
There must be some scope there.


Many of the games with bxc3 do eventually lead back to positions that can be reached by normal move orders, provided White plays d4. But I'd agree that a player with a broad understanding and knowledge of Gruenfeld positions might be able to squeeze out something by deferring the transposition.
  
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MartinC
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Re: English v Gruenfeld
Reply #1 - 05/22/13 at 11:15:50
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Well do like that sort of thing more than your opponents? If so then go ahead Smiley

After 6 bxc3 there is actually maybe an interesting question as to whether white can get any milage out of delaying playing d4 for a few moves.

One very logical option would be to try to get castled first, so you can play a Rb1 style exchange variation without first losing the a2 pawn.

Some of the older books suggest some ideas with Ba3 and things to stop c5. I don't think I've seen it mentioned/discussed in recent times. There must be some scope there.
  
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RdC
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English v Gruenfeld
05/22/13 at 10:43:43
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Any thoughts on the line 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 ? Playing 6. bxc3 is likely to lead to a Gruenfeld, but what of 6. dxc3?

The queenless position after after 6. .. Qxd1 7. Kxd1 has been played with both colours by well known players over the years including world champions and their challengers. But it does seem very drawish, particularly with the balanced pawn structure. Many games are over as draws within thirty moves.
  
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