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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert (Read 50603 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #44 - 08/14/14 at 06:55:10
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Just a quick question, does the double gambit of b2 & c3 followed by Bf4-c7 have a name? A friend of mine kept referring to it as the Vaganian gambit, but as far as i know that one just gives the b2-pawn with a Nc3 and Bf4-d2 set-up. Or are both ideas of Vaganian?
  
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Bibs
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #43 - 06/30/14 at 00:41:34
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Bump
Richard...?
  
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tipau
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #42 - 06/29/14 at 19:11:48
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Hi Richard - Aveskulov's line is 9...Qb6 (not 9...Qa5) with the idea 10.0-0 Rd8 11.d5 e6!? or 10.h3 Bxe2 11.Nxe2 Rd8 12.c3 e5! as in Laurie - Tsesarsky, 1997
  

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #41 - 06/29/14 at 15:50:30
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Hi all, I had a recent request to comment on this chat (with specific reference to the Aveskulov line). As I am new to using the forum, I have only just seen this chat.  Unfortunately I was not aware of the Aveskulov line when I wrote the book, which is a shame as I tried to get hold of all the relevant material before finishing the book (this one obviously slipped through the net). I still haven't got the Aveskulov book so if someone could tell me the recommendation against my stuff then I would be happy to have a more detailed look.  Just from glancing through the forum chats, the line appears to run 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8. Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5 10.h3 Bh5 11. 0-0 and here I covered 11. ...0-0-0 where I recommended 12.Qe1N.  Am I right in thinking Aveskulov line is 11...Rd8 and if so does he mention 12.Qe1N with the same idea as against 0-0-0. Ie 11...Rd8 12.Qe1 Nxd4 13.Nxd4 Rxd4 14. Nxe4 Qxe1 15. Rfxe1 with slightly more comfortable play for white due to his lead in development and queenside majority.  Look forward to hearing from someone who owns the book and I'll have a more detailed look.  Cheers.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #40 - 02/20/14 at 05:28:20
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Ah, thanks. If that's all...it's nothing special for Black. 5. Bd3 cd4, 6. ed4 Nc6, 7. Be4 de4, 8. Ne2 Bg4, 9. Nbc3 is probably okay.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #39 - 02/17/14 at 14:10:36
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leavenfish wrote on 02/15/14 at 22:06:27:
What exactly is Aveskulov's line. I am afraid I do not have the book.


Read reply #35.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #38 - 02/15/14 at 22:06:27
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lnn2 wrote on 12/09/13 at 06:12:34:
I gave up the Tromp with White because of Aveskulov's lines- its not even good as a surprise weapon anymore because the Nd5 idea referred to by Flig is such a dampener (and I'm also not convinced by Pert's 4. e3 c5 5. Bd3)


What exactly is Aveskulov's line. I am afraid I do not have the book.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #37 - 12/09/13 at 11:29:35
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Well, I can offer one big improvement for Black on an RP blitz game in the book;

1 d4 Nf6 2 Bg5 c5 3 Nc3 (don’t ask) cxd4 4 Qxd4 Nc6 5 Qh4 e6 6 000 Be7 7 e4 00 8 f4 h6 9 Nf3 hxg5 10 Nxg5 Qa5 11 e5 Nxe5  12 fxe5 Qxe5  13 Bd3, and here Black proceeded with something inept – 13…g6?, I think – and naturally lost, whereas after 13…Nh5 White would more or less have to resign.

It’s true that this is not so important, arguably because 3 Nc3 is an absurd move in the first place and 7…00?! certainly is, but mainly because White has much better than 13 Bd3 and is in fact a fair bit better anyway. And of course anyone can put other people’s blitz games on a computer and locate ‘improvements’. Still, it’s quite a pretty trick by Black, so perhaps worth mentioning.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #36 - 12/09/13 at 06:12:34
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I gave up the Tromp with White because of Aveskulov's lines- its not even good as a surprise weapon anymore because the Nd5 idea referred to by Flig is such a dampener (and I'm also not convinced by Pert's 4. e3 c5 5. Bd3)

2... d5 is the best defence theoretically but Tromp players are happy with Bxf6, and can at least argue that they have a "mirror" exchange ruy which is interesting to play with.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #35 - 12/08/13 at 12:28:50
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From what I know Black equalizes fairly easily with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 but it´s not so easy to play for a win here if White plays without ambition, e.g. with 4.e3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bf5 7.Nbd2 e6 8.Nxe4 Bxe4 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Be7 11.0-0 0-0 as given by Aveskulov in Attack with Black is equal (and boring).

On the other hand the plan with Bd3xe4 as suggested by Pert in this line isn´t looking threatening either.

If you have more ambition with Black than you could choose 3...c5 here but this requires certainly more knowledge to avoid being worse in the opening.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #34 - 12/08/13 at 12:22:55
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2...d5!
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #33 - 12/08/13 at 09:33:50
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After all these new developments, what do you think is the best line for Black against the Tromp ?

Feel free to set up a new thread if that's more appropriate. Smiley
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #32 - 11/09/13 at 16:25:54
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Bibs wrote on 11/09/13 at 15:11:08:
I am all for being critical of texts. But vagueness in a critique is rarely helpful.
Could you give examples of where you disagree to provoke discussion?


Sorry, bibs, no, since I just have been briefly looking at the lines. The way Esserman wrote Mayhem in the Morra I felt was that his main lines are not the best play by Black, instead those lines are sometimes buried in the text in passing (he also mentions that several times in the book). I got the same feeling with the Tromp book -  Basically every line starts or ends with something like "I have new ideas - and White is better". Some of the lines are just blitz games from ICC. That is ok I guess, though, since many lines haven't been tested in regular games. Still, that also gives a feeling something is left out.

Anyway, I am looking forward to reading the book and maybe try Bg5 in my own games.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #31 - 11/09/13 at 15:11:08
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I am all for being critical of texts. But vagueness in a critique is rarely helpful.
Could you give examples of where you disagree to provoke discussion?
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #30 - 11/09/13 at 13:08:02
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I just got the book and haven't started reading it. But I get very suspicious when I see comments all over in the spirit "White is better". If that is the case, it seems like Black's best options are ignored in several lines. Kinda like Esserman's book on the Morra.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #29 - 10/01/13 at 18:52:07
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #28 - 08/19/13 at 15:53:45
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alyechin wrote on 08/01/13 at 18:36:30:
Flashman wrote on 08/01/13 at 15:34:28:
I'm too! Very very disappointed Sad !
I found a lot of mistakes and flaws in almost every line!


I don't believe you, because you didn't give any example!


How do you explain this review?

Quote:
Fehler in der Form, dass Pert die Leser seines Buches ins partieliche Verderben führt, habe ich nicht erkennen können und ein solches Ergebnis haben auch nicht die vom Kollegen aufgeführten Varianten.
"Playing the Trompowsky" ist unter den vorgenannten Aspekten ein Buch wie jedes andere. Wie immer sollte der Leser die Möglichkeit auf dem Schirm haben, dass der Autor auch mal irrt. Pert ist Autor und damit so wenig unfehlbar wie jeder andere auch.


http://www.bdf-fernschachbund.de/service/rezensionen/2013/rezens2013.htm#Playing...
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #27 - 08/08/13 at 22:22:14
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Flashman wrote on 08/08/13 at 21:14:00:
TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.


I think that 11.a3 is better than just 11.0-0 with the idea of b4 (white gets interesting position after that!):
11.a3: if just developing than: e6 12.0-0 Be7 13.d5 Rd8 14.b4 Qb6 15. d6 and seems to me that white is more than ok!
11.a3 Rd8 12.b4! Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Nxb4 14.0-0 Nc6 15.Nb5 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Rxd4 17.Rad1 Qd5 18.RxR QxR 19.Rd1 Qa4 20. Qd2 we come to an interesting position- I think that white will regain the pawn(b7) and will get practical advantage. what is your opinion?



Interesting idea Flashman!  Smiley But maybe black could play  the move : ...Rd8 one move earlier to avoid this?

I dunno yet

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #26 - 08/08/13 at 21:47:12
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Flashman wrote on 08/08/13 at 21:14:00:
TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.


I think that 11.a3 is better than just 11.0-0 with the idea of b4 (white gets interesting position after that!):
11.a3: if just developing than: e6 12.0-0 Be7 13.d5 Rd8 14.b4 Qb6 15. d6 and seems to me that white is more than ok!
11.a3 Rd8 12.b4! Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Nxb4 14.0-0 Nc6 15.Nb5 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Rxd4 17.Rad1 Qd5 18.RxR QxR 19.Rd1 Qa4 20. Qd2 we come to an interesting position- I think that white will regain the pawn(b7) and will get practical advantage. what is your opinion?


It certainly looks like a better way to stir up trouble to me.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #25 - 08/08/13 at 21:14:00
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TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.


I think that 11.a3 is better than just 11.0-0 with the idea of b4 (white gets interesting position after that!):
11.a3: if just developing than: e6 12.0-0 Be7 13.d5 Rd8 14.b4 Qb6 15. d6 and seems to me that white is more than ok!
11.a3 Rd8 12.b4! Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Nxb4 14.0-0 Nc6 15.Nb5 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Rxd4 17.Rad1 Qd5 18.RxR QxR 19.Rd1 Qa4 20. Qd2 we come to an interesting position- I think that white will regain the pawn(b7) and will get practical advantage. what is your opinion?
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #24 - 08/08/13 at 19:27:39
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Fllg wrote on 08/08/13 at 18:08:34:
TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
I am curious to what Pert has found to make this line dangerous for Black, and also why he did not offer the interesting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 as a sharp second option, although admittedly with careful play black is fine there too.

Tops Smiley 


I find this chapter to be one of the less convincing parts of the book and think Black is fine here against everything Pert suggests.

The reason why 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 isn´t covered is probably the line 5...dxe4 6.Nc3 Nd5! as given by Aveskulov in "Attack with Black". That seems to offer Black an easy game without much trouble.


I agree with you that this is probably the less convincing ( and inspiring!) chapter in the book. I haven`t read all that  much in all of the chapters, but still. However, I dont think that Aveskulovs variation from "Attack with black" is the reason why he excluded any variations. Why? Its not even in  the bibliography  Wink. And consequently  Pert doesnt even mention the move 9...Qb6 in this variation. 

TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
Haven't posted here for awhile, but I do check the forum regularly. I play the line under consideration for black and think that he's ok after:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.
 


He doesent mention 11...Rd8 either ( thx TopNotch). Only 11...0-0-0. But you indicate this is a novelty, so we may forgive him....?  Its my Houdinis top move though, so I wonder...

In the introduction to this chaper he says that he has:

" chosen to look deeply at just one line involving 3.e3 followed by a plan of Bd3 and Bxe4, as I feel happy about White`s chances of gaining an advantage in these positions and it seem to me to be the best line".

Well, like I said,  I cant help but agree with Fllg on this chapter. And its a pity since the other  chapters seems both inspiring and a lot of fun. 

But maybe the bottom line is that the Trompovsky isnt more than a suprise weapon? One thing seems clear; if a Tromp player starts to meet TopNochs  line in every game, then he
soon will stop playing 2.Bg5.

Just my opinion  Smiley.

Ben   
  

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #23 - 08/08/13 at 18:08:34
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TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
I am curious to what Pert has found to make this line dangerous for Black, and also why he did not offer the interesting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 as a sharp second option, although admittedly with careful play black is fine there too.

Tops Smiley 


I find this chapter to be one of the less convincing parts of the book and think Black is fine here against everything Pert suggests.

The reason why 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 isn´t covered is probably the line 5...dxe4 6.Nc3 Nd5! as given by Aveskulov in "Attack with Black". That seems to offer Black an easy game without much trouble.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #22 - 08/08/13 at 16:37:23
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MartinC wrote on 08/08/13 at 08:20:00:
I would be very, very careful of computers here. They're notorious for not realising the problems with trapped pieces like that knight on b2. You'd need to check quite carefully by hand to be absolutely sure that white can't keep it trapped - he can of course potentially afford to ditch quite a bit of material in order to do so.


That's just it, it appears White can keep it trapped and eventually win it at the cost of the c4 (necessary to trap the knight) and b3 pawns and presumably it's never quite enough to claim equality.  White's idea of h4 and Rh3 being key to his success.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #21 - 08/08/13 at 16:24:50
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Haven't posted here for awhile, but I do check the forum regularly. I play the line under consideration for black and think that he's ok after:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.

I am curious to what Pert has found to make this line dangerous for Black, and also why he did not offer the interesting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 as a sharp second option, although admittedly with careful play black is fine there too.

Tops Smiley 
  

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #20 - 08/08/13 at 08:28:04
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/07/13 at 23:09:31:
In this particular variation, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 g6 9.Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 Ne5 11.Nxe4 Nc4 12.b3 Bf5 13.N2g3 Qa5 14.Kf1 Nb2, Houdini on my puter gives, 15.Qe1 Qxd5 (15...Qxe1 16.Rxe1 Bxe4 17.Nxe4 0-0 18.d6!) 16.Nd6+ Kf8 17.Ndxf5 gxf5 18.Nh5 Rg8 19.Nxg7 Rxg7 20.Rg1 Rc8 21.Qe5 Qxe5 22.Bxe5 Rxc2 23.Bxg7+ Kxg7 24.g3 as being plus over equals.

I thought that Ben means 12.N5g3!
Here, after 13.N2g3 Qa5 14.Kf1 I wanted to play Bxf5 15.Nxf5 Nb6- but I see that white can sacrifice an exchange with 16.c4! with a strong initiative!
So you right! the line I gave with 8...g6 isn't good!

To compensate, I think that  Aveskulov  line is not threatening to white:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qb6 10.0-0 (look best as he mention) Rd8 11.d5 e6!? (his marks) he thinks that the position is unclear, but after 12.h3 -Black has some problems! if 12...Bxe2 (lost his Bishop pair!) than 13.Qxe2 exd5 14.Rad1 Qc5 (Houdini move) 15. Qd2 and white will regain the pawn with little but stable edge!
If 12...Bh5 so 13.Qd2 .... Ng3 ... Rad1 (and d6) with a good play and if 12... Bf5 13.Be3! Qa5 (Qxb2 14.a3!) 14.Nd4 Nxd4 15.Qxd4 f6 (to free his Bishop) 16.Rad1 looks better for white...
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #19 - 08/08/13 at 08:20:00
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I would be very, very careful of computers here. They're notorious for not realising the problems with trapped pieces like that knight on b2. You'd need to check quite carefully by hand to be absolutely sure that white can't keep it trapped - he can of course potentially afford to ditch quite a bit of material in order to do so.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #18 - 08/07/13 at 23:09:31
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In this particular variation, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 g6 9.Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 Ne5 11.Nxe4 Nc4 12.b3 Bf5 13.N2g3 Qa5 14.Kf1 Nb2, Houdini on my puter gives, 15.Qe1 Qxd5 (15...Qxe1 16.Rxe1 Bxe4 17.Nxe4 0-0 18.d6!) 16.Nd6+ Kf8 17.Ndxf5 gxf5 18.Nh5 Rg8 19.Nxg7 Rxg7 20.Rg1 Rc8 21.Qe5 Qxe5 22.Bxe5 Rxc2 23.Bxg7+ Kxg7 24.g3 as being plus over equals.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #17 - 08/07/13 at 21:34:32
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In the final position that you mentioned, after 14.Kf1 Nb2 followed by  Queen's exchanges and Bxc2 and black looks better!

I dont get this. Do we talk about the same position?

Here is what I meant:

[/pgn]
To me without engines, it seemed like a very unnatural move indeed. But I know, concrete analysis  Smiley

I just dont get how black forces the exchange of queens and take the pawn on c2.  Even with enigines, now that im back at home...

Best
Ben
  

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #16 - 08/07/13 at 14:28:40
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Benoniac wrote on 08/05/13 at 22:48:39:
Flashman wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:54:40:
Ok I will bring two examples (1- is a main line which I play against as black and the 2 is a sideline- but I want to show a phenomenon  that return over and over):

1) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 (I play this line as black and against this he give just one recommendation) 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4! (his exclamation mark- he prefer this move over Bxe4) Nc6 7.Bxe4 (he mention 7.Ne2!? as a move to consider but he doesn't analyse this move further but Bf5 and black seem to be with no problem see Vitiugov-Karjakin 2010!) dxe4 8.Ne2 (he shows why 8.d5 doesn't work) and now he give 2 moves: 8...e5 as a mistake and 8...Bg4 as the main line, but 8...g6! seem to give black very good game for example: 9.d5 (9. Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 transpose because 10.Nxe4 Nxd4 seems fine for black) Bg7! 10.Nbc3 (10.dxc6 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 Bxb2... ) Ne5 11.0-0 (11.Nxe4 Nc4 looks fine) f5 with the plan h6 and than casteling if black can, and I think that just black can be better in the long run (and he even doesn't mention g6!)

2) Sideline: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 and beside the four moves he give for black, he give as a sideline 4...g6 and than : 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.Bxe4 dxe4 7.Nc3 f5?! (my marks- why not c5?) now he give 8. f3?! (my marks) and now instead of c5 for black he give just exf3?! Nxf3 and continue in showing the game until move 14 and than he claims for white advantage.
that phenomenon that he just showing a game without any analayse of the sidelines is all over the book and is annoying!

So, I can bring much more analyse for my bad fortune Sad (I'm little more than 2200 elo and I plays against GM's So If I found a lot of mistakes so easily so how can I use It against a GM?!)


I  agree with you on 7...c5 in the 2) sideline. Partly because it "must" have been played in tournament pratice before, and partly cause a ...c5 it must be very thematic  in Tromp, and against a f2-f3  over all   ( Veresov for example).

But. An author cannot cover everything. And although I think  this "8...g6!"  move of yours is very interesting, my guess is that  its a novelty and therefore can be easy to miss under certain circumstances. But you say "over and over"; is it really that bad I wonder?

BTW, and Im without engine power here on holiday. But this variation with:
9.d5  Ne5 11..Nxe4 Nc4 where you think black looks fine... I cant help but feeling that 12.b3!? may be the way to go for white. It might follow: 12...Bf5 13.Neg3-Qa5+ 14.Kf1. Unclear to me, for sure. And im missing my Houdini... Smiley

All the best
Ben

You right Ben, I checked and 8... g6 is a novelty.
In the final position that you mentioned, after 14.Kf1 Nb2 followed by  Queen's exchanges and Bxc2 and black looks better!
I watched Quality's Blog and someone mention that he doesn't mention Aveskulov Line, I checked and he is right! Aveskulov recommends 8...Qb6 (In a different move order but after Qb6 Nbc3 we come to the same position).
Overall I think that the book isn't a serious work and I'm very dissapointed!
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #15 - 08/05/13 at 22:48:39
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Flashman wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:54:40:
Ok I will bring two examples (1- is a main line which I play against as black and the 2 is a sideline- but I want to show a phenomenon  that return over and over):

1) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 (I play this line as black and against this he give just one recommendation) 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4! (his exclamation mark- he prefer this move over Bxe4) Nc6 7.Bxe4 (he mention 7.Ne2!? as a move to consider but he doesn't analyse this move further but Bf5 and black seem to be with no problem see Vitiugov-Karjakin 2010!) dxe4 8.Ne2 (he shows why 8.d5 doesn't work) and now he give 2 moves: 8...e5 as a mistake and 8...Bg4 as the main line, but 8...g6! seem to give black very good game for example: 9.d5 (9. Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 transpose because 10.Nxe4 Nxd4 seems fine for black) Bg7! 10.Nbc3 (10.dxc6 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 Bxb2... ) Ne5 11.0-0 (11.Nxe4 Nc4 looks fine) f5 with the plan h6 and than casteling if black can, and I think that just black can be better in the long run (and he even doesn't mention g6!)

2) Sideline: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 and beside the four moves he give for black, he give as a sideline 4...g6 and than : 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.Bxe4 dxe4 7.Nc3 f5?! (my marks- why not c5?) now he give 8. f3?! (my marks) and now instead of c5 for black he give just exf3?! Nxf3 and continue in showing the game until move 14 and than he claims for white advantage.
that phenomenon that he just showing a game without any analayse of the sidelines is all over the book and is annoying!

So, I can bring much more analyse for my bad fortune Sad (I'm little more than 2200 elo and I plays against GM's So If I found a lot of mistakes so easily so how can I use It against a GM?!)


I  agree with you on 7...c5 in the 2) sideline. Partly because it "must" have been played in tournament pratice before, and partly cause a ...c5 it must be very thematic  in Tromp, and against a f2-f3  over all   ( Veresov for example).

But. An author cannot cover everything. And although I think  this "8...g6!"  move of yours is very interesting, my guess is that  its a novelty and therefore can be easy to miss under certain circumstances. But you say "over and over"; is it really that bad I wonder?

BTW, and Im without engine power here on holiday. But this variation with:
9.d5  Ne5 11..Nxe4 Nc4 where you think black looks fine... I cant help but feeling that 12.b3!? may be the way to go for white. It might follow: 12...Bf5 13.Neg3-Qa5+ 14.Kf1. Unclear to me, for sure. And im missing my Houdini... Smiley

All the best
Ben
  

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #14 - 08/05/13 at 15:44:04
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tony37 wrote on 08/01/13 at 15:11:05:
this german reviewer is not excited at all:

http://www.schach-welt.de/BLOG/Blog/GrimmsMaerchenstunde


IM Pert has answered this critisism now on the QC site.

Here:

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?cat=9

@Viking:

Thanks for sharing you thougts  Smiley

I also was hoping to get some inspiration and fresh positions. The book is laying home waiting for me ( on holidays). So excited to have a look at it soon. 

Ben
  

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #13 - 08/05/13 at 09:44:04
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Have been playing the pseudo tromp lately without any resources available before now(being bored meeting the slav).

Half of the coverage is devoted to 2..f6 which is perhaps the theoretically most difficult reply to meet. Bh4 is main recommendation but also Bf4 and Bd2(totally new to me) is covered.  He is not able to show any advantage but positions are unorthodox and white is most likely the one with more experience.

I had hoped Pert would show me some new brilliant way to handle the 2..h6 3.Bh4 c6 4.Nf3 Qb6 5. Qc1 Bf5 which I find very solid and is a very natural slav like way of handling the opening. Unfortunately there is no magic. But it is still a normal game of chess of course.

I have not studied the section in detail (I wonder if I ever do Embarrassed) but it has so far given me inspiration and new ideas to continue playing this interesting practical opening.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #12 - 08/04/13 at 20:16:34
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Hmm.

What about the line with 1.d4-d5 2.Bg5. Does anybody have an opinion about that chapter, or is it still too early? 

Ben
  

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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #11 - 08/04/13 at 05:44:28
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Flashman wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:54:40:
(he mention 7.Ne2!? as a move to consider but he doesn't analyse this move further but Bf5 and black seem to be with no problem see Vitiugov-Karjakin 2010!)


Pert on P 181: Quote:
If you would prefer to delay the exchange even longer, you could consider 7.Ne2!?


In my opinion Pert wanted to say "maybe you want to try Ne2" because Vitiugov played it.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #10 - 08/02/13 at 14:54:40
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Ok I will bring two examples (1- is a main line which I play against as black and the 2 is a sideline- but I want to show a phenomenon  that return over and over):

1) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 (I play this line as black and against this he give just one recommendation) 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4! (his exclamation mark- he prefer this move over Bxe4) Nc6 7.Bxe4 (he mention 7.Ne2!? as a move to consider but he doesn't analyse this move further but Bf5 and black seem to be with no problem see Vitiugov-Karjakin 2010!) dxe4 8.Ne2 (he shows why 8.d5 doesn't work) and now he give 2 moves: 8...e5 as a mistake and 8...Bg4 as the main line, but 8...g6! seem to give black very good game for example: 9.d5 (9. Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 transpose because 10.Nxe4 Nxd4 seems fine for black) Bg7! 10.Nbc3 (10.dxc6 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 Bxb2... ) Ne5 11.0-0 (11.Nxe4 Nc4 looks fine) f5 with the plan h6 and than casteling if black can, and I think that just black can be better in the long run (and he even doesn't mention g6!)

2) Sideline: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 and beside the four moves he give for black, he give as a sideline 4...g6 and than : 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.Bxe4 dxe4 7.Nc3 f5?! (my marks- why not c5?) now he give 8. f3?! (my marks) and now instead of c5 for black he give just exf3?! Nxf3 and continue in showing the game until move 14 and than he claims for white advantage.
that phenomenon that he just showing a game without any analayse of the sidelines is all over the book and is annoying!

So, I can bring much more analyse for my bad fortune Sad (I'm little more than 2200 elo and I plays against GM's So If I found a lot of mistakes so easily so how can I use It against a GM?!)
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #9 - 08/02/13 at 13:38:09
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Agreed.  Examples are fine and I'd appreciate it if you posted them!
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #8 - 08/01/13 at 20:41:38
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One or two concrete lines is completely fair game.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #7 - 08/01/13 at 19:38:11
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ammm.. I don't know to how deep can I show because of copyright, but almost in every variation you want Sad !
(maybe in private massages?)
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #6 - 08/01/13 at 18:36:30
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Flashman wrote on 08/01/13 at 15:34:28:
I'm too! Very very disappointed Sad !
I found a lot of mistakes and flaws in almost every line!


I don't believe you, because you didn't give any example!
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #5 - 08/01/13 at 15:34:28
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I'm too! Very very disappointed Sad !
I found a lot of mistakes and flaws in almost every line!
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #4 - 08/01/13 at 15:11:05
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this german reviewer is not excited at all:

http://www.schach-welt.de/BLOG/Blog/GrimmsMaerchenstunde
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #3 - 06/13/13 at 14:45:45
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Carlsen playing it against Kramnik in the Tal Memorial is good publicity. The downside being that it may have rewritten the theory.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #2 - 06/10/13 at 15:28:37
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #1 - 05/28/13 at 07:14:04
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I agree, looking forward to this. More familiar with his brother Nick, but IM strength is nothing to sneeze at. Hopefully he will keep up the tradition of fine English chess authors.
  
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Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
05/27/13 at 09:27:22
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After 4 years, we are finally going to get a new book on Trompowsky and I cannot wait till June when it is due. Thanks a lot to Richard Pert and Quality Chess.

Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/1/205/playing_the_trompowsky_by_richard_p...

"This book provides an attacking repertoire for White in the ambitious Trompowsky Attack. To provide a wide repertoire, 2.Bg5 against the Dutch Defence is also covered, as well as the Pseudo-Tromp, 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5.

Richard Pert is an English international master who has played the Trompowsky with success more than ten years. "
  
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