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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1...e5 Endgame repertoire (Read 25548 times)
nocteus
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #11 - 07/30/13 at 18:36:27
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Markovich wrote on 07/30/13 at 15:23:53:
Fundamentally I agree with benoniac.  It seems a terrible shame to take up 1...e5 and not play it in a spirit of rapid development and, if White falters, capturing the initiative. 


No shame in asking questions about the potential of some defenses and, for some time, introducing some variety, isn't it? I agree Spassky would not have been Spassky had he not met Tolush... neither had he not met Zak and Bondarevsky too! But unfortunately, I am not Spassky and never will be.

I know about the concept of the little center in the Sicilian, about the resilience of the Caro-Slav structure, etc. But what about 1...e5? Precisely, because this is the Open Game, I wonder whether there might exist some 'soak up' lines, systems, variations, in this tremendously rich complex of openings.
  
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MartinC
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #10 - 07/30/13 at 09:55:50
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This is getting more realistic Smiley (My original reply was purposefully slightly pedantic.). Look at whatever, say, Kramnik is doing.

Or, if you're really serious about long term advantages, plenty of people argue that something like e6/d6 sicillians give black a long term advantage. The pay off for that is of course giving white (very) real attacking chances and so sharp play.

Or you could take up pawn snatching Smiley
  
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heavypieces
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #9 - 07/30/13 at 08:52:08
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It seems to me that there exists two serious drawbacks in this technical/defensive opening approach:

1. White might not play along. What if White is a lower rated player and, instead of throwing themselves upon your resilient opening, they just sit there, shuffle pieces, and think - 'I'll just play solidly and take the draw'?

2. A linked problem is that by playing defensively you're missing out on a very rewarding strategy - attacking play! Attacking play can cause the opponent to feel pressured and make mistakes, even if your attack is not completely sound. I just think that, below Master level at least, attacking play is more rewarding (in terms of results, and in terms of fun, although obviously that's subjective) than technical play.

[EDIT: Typo]
  
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Benoniac
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #8 - 07/29/13 at 22:01:36
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To summarize, I am not looking for 'pure' endgame lines - the fact that I quoted two, and this topic this title was a bit misleading, i reckon -, but solid lines that have this trend : long-term advantages, ultra-resilient position, and exchange pieces mechanic. Something like 'soak up' defences.

Well, as a long time 1...e5 player, you should know that your question  is an enigma. Its not possible to answer. How is it possible to force/ get a long term advantage when playing the symmetric 1...e5 if white doesnt want to go along?  I just dont get this.

The open  sicilian with an extra centre pawn in the late middlegame/endagame is another story.

But with the classical 1...e5 I think this project of yours is just not possible.
Ben
  

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nocteus
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #7 - 07/29/13 at 17:48:53
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tony37 wrote on 07/29/13 at 17:04:30:
and what's the reason you don't play the Caro-Kann if you want something Caro-Kann-like?


I am a long time 1...e5 player, so I am curious about the possibilities available right now.
  
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tony37
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #6 - 07/29/13 at 17:04:30
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and what's the reason you don't play the Caro-Kann if you want something Caro-Kann-like?
  
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nocteus
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #5 - 07/29/13 at 16:43:59
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Markovich wrote on 07/29/13 at 15:48:23:
In the OP, "highly favorable" seems a bit much to ask. 


I guess I should have explained more - thanks for your answers, by the way!

My intention is not over-prepare an opponent by structuring a repertoire with 'endgame lines' only - and -+ lines, too. One could compare it with the Caro-Kann (the way Karpov played it). In this opening, you do not exchange queens so often, especially in the opening. You try to keep pieces on board, gives white some initiative while offering him a resilient structure against which he is hard-pressed to find a suitable pawn. Step by step, you methodically extinguish his initiative or his attack, exchange bad pieces for good ones, and stir the game to an endgame, or a static position, where you can 'technically' work his weaknesses.

To summarize, I am not looking for 'pure' endgame lines - the fact that I quoted two, and this topic this title was a bit misleading, i reckon -, but solid lines that have this trend : long-term advantages, ultra-resilient position, and exchange pieces mechanic. Something like 'soak up' defences.
« Last Edit: 07/29/13 at 19:28:49 by nocteus »  
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #4 - 07/29/13 at 14:51:16
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And of course the Spanish Four Knights thing depends on White not playing e.g. the traditional main move 5. Ba4.

In the Scotch Four Knights there is 5...Bb4 6. Nxc6 bc 7. Bd3 d5 8. ed Qe7+ to reach a queenless position -- I recall Karpov playing this, but I think it's generally considered slightly better for White.
  
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #3 - 07/29/13 at 14:32:22
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Against the Italian you can steer for an endgame with 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxe4 8.Bxb4 Nxb4 9.Bxf7 Kxf7 10.Qb3 Kf8 11.Qxb4 Qe7, but against the more common 5.d3 there's no easy way to force the queens off. Against the Spanish Four Knights you can reach an endgame with 4...Nd4 5.Nxd4 exd4 6.e5 dxc3 7.exf6 Qxf6 8.dxc3 Qe7 9.Qe2 but it's a pretty boring endgame.
  

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tony37
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #2 - 07/29/13 at 13:16:29
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another idea is the Scotch endgame, the most common version is 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nxc6 bxc6 6. e5 Qe7 7. Qe2 Nd5 8. c4 Ba6 9. b3 g6 10. g3 Bg7 11. Bb2 O-O 12. Bg2 Rae8 13. O-O Bxe5 14. Qxe5 Qxe5 15. Bxe5 Rxe5 16. cxd5 Bxf1 17. Kxf1 cxd5
of course there are many ways to deviate earlier
  
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MartinC
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Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #1 - 07/29/13 at 12:25:08
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As black? No Smiley White has a decent chance of deciding the nature of play like this but black doesn't to any great extent. Not even with the Berlin, cf 4 d3 etc.
  
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nocteus
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1...e5 Endgame repertoire
07/29/13 at 11:49:18
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Hi,
I intend to play, for sometime, a repertoire revolving around endgames or 'technical' play. I wondered if it could be possible to build an exhaustive one offering positions, a bit in Caro-Kann spirit, where you 'leave' the middlegame to white, do not fight for initiative, temper white's, and focus only on the transition to a higly favorable endgame (or a static position) mainly by means of good/bad pieces exchanges.

For now:

Spanish, Berlin
Capablanca Endgame

Thanks!
  
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