Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1...e5 Endgame repertoire (Read 19123 times)
Confused_by_Theory
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 356
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #26 - 06/08/15 at 22:56:53
Post Tools
DrKibzwang wrote on 06/02/15 at 03:31:45:
How about the Petroff?


The Petroff does perhaps give some chances for dull technical positions if white chooses not to play ambitiously.

Personally though I've always seen the Petroff as an opening for those who want to fight with white in a fairly open middlegame not an opening for those wanting technical play and good endgames.

Have a nice day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gut Gambit
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 47
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/28/14
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #25 - 06/07/15 at 21:58:03
Post Tools
DrKibzwang wrote on 06/02/15 at 03:31:45:
How about the Petroff?

Yes what about it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DrKibzwang
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


The execution soon gets
worse than the threat.

Posts: 26
Joined: 01/27/07
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #24 - 06/02/15 at 03:31:45
Post Tools
How about the Petroff?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gut Gambit
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 47
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/28/14
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #23 - 05/07/15 at 19:54:09
Post Tools
Just be aware that if you use this move order ( 1.e4-d6 2.d4-Nf6 3.Nc3-e5!?) on permanent basis, the opponents might start using the move order : 1.e4-d6 2.Nc3!? ( point being: 2...Nf6 3.f4) , and suddenly S. Kasparovs book is of no use for you. I`m not saying this is all great for white, but I think its very playable...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
urusov
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 147
Location: Kenilworth
Joined: 08/04/05
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #22 - 05/06/15 at 00:26:55
Post Tools
Besides the ideas suggested so far (especially the Berlin ending), an interesting approach is the Philidor via the move order 1.e4 d6!? 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5! 

Sergey Kasparov has an interesting book titled "A Cunning Chess Opening for Black" (http://www.amazon.com/Cunning-Chess-Opening-Black-Opponent/dp/9056915932/) that deeply explores the ending that follows 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8, which a lot of amateurs (at least those not afraid to exchange queens) will play very quickly, especially in blitz -- entering what the author calls "the Philidor swamp."  From my own experience playing this and similar lines, you will get the ending quite a bit -- though hardly in every game.  But I'd say it is your best chance of getting a quick ending via "the open games."  See sample pages here:
https://www.newinchess.com/Shop/Images/Pdfs/9008.pdf

This idea is even better after 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5! 3.dxe5?! etc., when the pawn at c4 creates some problems for White -- weakening dark squares and presenting a potential target.  There are plenty of other books on the universal 1...d6 repertoire.

Edmar Mednis had an interesting book long ago titled "From the Opening into the Endgame" (http://www.amazon.com/From-Opening-Endgame-Edmar-Mednis/dp/1857441249) which explored your idea of getting interesting endings out of the opening -- but as White.  As others have pointed out in this thread, White has a much better chance of forcing an ending than Black.  But it would be interesting to contemplate an endgame repertoire as Black.  Probably the Slav and the Caro-Kann present the best opportunities.  Perhaps the Bogo-Indian and Rubinstein French (see Langrock's book) are another approach.  But I think 1...d6 followed by ...e5 is the simplest option and the one closest to your desired open games repertoire.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #21 - 08/01/13 at 05:11:54
Post Tools
Edited:
Please refrain from personal attacks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 107
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #20 - 07/31/13 at 20:21:26
Post Tools
...

Now, the first part of your reply, that was interesting and I thank you very much. As for the rest...

Edited:
Edited to remove reference to a personal attack ~SF
« Last Edit: 08/01/13 at 05:13:01 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1939
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #19 - 07/31/13 at 13:47:08
Post Tools
I've never been terribly sure about that - I've always liked defending against attacks and have beaten quite a few people who've panicked while driving attacks through.
(Some objectively sound, some not.).

I'm far from convinced that driving an attack home accurately is any easier than defending sensibly.

I guess stuff like the Breyer has to count as soaking pressure up, although in that case the full set of pieces and a mass of tension does remain for a very long time.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
heavypieces
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/25/11
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #18 - 07/31/13 at 13:25:04
Post Tools
Quote:

You are right...right in saying your view is very subjective. I derive far more pleasure from squeezing an opponent to death, soaking up an attack and going on to win or otherwise outplaying a  player positionally, that in wining through attack.

There is of course a different between playing solidly and playing passively. And a good player understands that sharp play cannot be entirely avoided and will have to be willing to attack when it is favourable.

But, there are many valid approaches to playing chess. And  it is wrong to say that attacking play is fundamentally superior to other styles of play.


I don't want to wander too far from the original topic of the post (suggestions for a 1...e5 endgame repertoire), but I would like to reply to Antillian's comments on my earlier post.

No, I certainly do not claim that attacking play is superior to technical play; I don't know how such a claim could even be clearly defined and measured.

What I was suggesting was that below master level, attacking play is disproportionately rewarded. In other words, non-titled players can be induced to play poorly by placing them under attacking pressure. They lack the defensive skills of a higher level player.

Thus, if one adopts an endgame repertoire, one risks losing the opportunity of exploiting this practical strategy.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
katar
Senior Member
****
Offline


look another year went
by

Posts: 408
Location: LA
Joined: 09/21/05
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #17 - 07/30/13 at 23:33:12
Post Tools
Berlin and Petroff have been mentioned.

Philidor setups are also possible, either with the standard buildup d6, c6, e5, Qc7, Nbd7, Ngf6, Be7, h6 (in some order) or with the more direct 1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 allowing the queenswap line.

The question of this thread is a bit vague though, because most major variations after 1.e4 e5 are quite solid and resilient, as that is the nature of 1.e4 e5 openings for Black in general.
  

2078 uscf
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 559
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #16 - 07/30/13 at 23:18:38
Post Tools
how about the modern Steinitz defence 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 ?
I have no experience with it, but it looks solid to me
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Benoniac
Full Member
***
Offline


Don`t become what you
hate

Posts: 147
Location: norway
Joined: 01/13/11
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #15 - 07/30/13 at 23:13:50
Post Tools
I really dont get it. And you. And its probably just me..

But If you want a take a step back as a 1...e5 player then play 1...e6 instead.  Smiley Very practical.

And yes, I really have some ideas in the open games. And  that is because I played it "all my life". 

This is the reason I understand so little of what you are trying to hammer of out your stone..

No offence

Best

Ben


  

People dont live or die, people just float
B Dylan
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 107
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #14 - 07/30/13 at 22:40:15
Post Tools
Benoniac wrote on 07/30/13 at 21:40:59:
But I cant help but  agree with Markovich that if you choose to play Open Games ( 1...e5) , then you should be ready for that first white mistake Cool


My guess is that you misunderstand me. I have never said that I would not like to exploit white's mistakes, nor did I say that I would not play according to the needs of the position: if a kingside attack is asked for, so be it!

You confuse, as Antilian rightfully expressed it, passive play and solid play. Yes, I could go
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5!
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 and Ulvestad!
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 and right into the heart of the Muzio et alii!
And so on.

I use to play such lines, fighting for the initiative right from the third move. But, for a time, I would like to take a step back. Why not? Have you got some ideas in the Open Game complex?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Benoniac
Full Member
***
Offline


Don`t become what you
hate

Posts: 147
Location: norway
Joined: 01/13/11
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #13 - 07/30/13 at 21:40:59
Post Tools
And  it is wrong to say that attacking play is fundamentally superior to other styles of play.

In my opinion heavypieces has not said no such thing (superior) . He expressed his liking of attacking play vs the thechnical style. Must be allowed Smiley

You got some good points though.

But I cant help but  agree with Markovich that if you choose to play Open Games ( 1...e5) , then you should be ready for that first white mistake Cool

Ben
  

People dont live or die, people just float
B Dylan
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1753
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #12 - 07/30/13 at 21:16:22
Post Tools
heavypieces wrote on 07/30/13 at 08:52:08:
It seems to me that there exists two serious drawbacks in this technical/defensive opening approach:

1. White might not play along. What if White is a lower rated player and, instead of throwing themselves upon your resilient opening, they just sit there, shuffle pieces, and think - 'I'll just play solidly and take the draw'?

2. A linked problem is that by playing defensively you're missing out on a very rewarding strategy - attacking play! Attacking play can cause the opponent to feel pressured and make mistakes, even if your attack is not completely sound. I just think that, below Master level at least, attacking play is more rewarding (in terms of results, and in terms of fun, although obviously that's subjective) than technical play.

[EDIT: Typo]


You are right...right in saying your view is very subjective. I derive far more pleasure from squeezing an opponent to death, soaking up an attack and going on to win or otherwise outplaying a  player positionally, that in wining through attack.

There is of course a different between playing solidly and playing passively. And a good player understands that sharp play cannot be entirely avoided and will have to be willing to attack when it is favourable.

But, there are many valid approaches to playing chess. And  it is wrong to say that attacking play is fundamentally superior to other styles of play.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 107
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #11 - 07/30/13 at 18:36:27
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 07/30/13 at 15:23:53:
Fundamentally I agree with benoniac.  It seems a terrible shame to take up 1...e5 and not play it in a spirit of rapid development and, if White falters, capturing the initiative. 


No shame in asking questions about the potential of some defenses and, for some time, introducing some variety, isn't it? I agree Spassky would not have been Spassky had he not met Tolush... neither had he not met Zak and Bondarevsky too! But unfortunately, I am not Spassky and never will be.

I know about the concept of the little center in the Sicilian, about the resilience of the Caro-Slav structure, etc. But what about 1...e5? Precisely, because this is the Open Game, I wonder whether there might exist some 'soak up' lines, systems, variations, in this tremendously rich complex of openings.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1939
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #10 - 07/30/13 at 09:55:50
Post Tools
This is getting more realistic Smiley (My original reply was purposefully slightly pedantic.). Look at whatever, say, Kramnik is doing.

Or, if you're really serious about long term advantages, plenty of people argue that something like e6/d6 sicillians give black a long term advantage. The pay off for that is of course giving white (very) real attacking chances and so sharp play.

Or you could take up pawn snatching Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
heavypieces
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/25/11
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #9 - 07/30/13 at 08:52:08
Post Tools
It seems to me that there exists two serious drawbacks in this technical/defensive opening approach:

1. White might not play along. What if White is a lower rated player and, instead of throwing themselves upon your resilient opening, they just sit there, shuffle pieces, and think - 'I'll just play solidly and take the draw'?

2. A linked problem is that by playing defensively you're missing out on a very rewarding strategy - attacking play! Attacking play can cause the opponent to feel pressured and make mistakes, even if your attack is not completely sound. I just think that, below Master level at least, attacking play is more rewarding (in terms of results, and in terms of fun, although obviously that's subjective) than technical play.

[EDIT: Typo]
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Benoniac
Full Member
***
Offline


Don`t become what you
hate

Posts: 147
Location: norway
Joined: 01/13/11
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #8 - 07/29/13 at 22:01:36
Post Tools
To summarize, I am not looking for 'pure' endgame lines - the fact that I quoted two, and this topic this title was a bit misleading, i reckon -, but solid lines that have this trend : long-term advantages, ultra-resilient position, and exchange pieces mechanic. Something like 'soak up' defences.

Well, as a long time 1...e5 player, you should know that your question  is an enigma. Its not possible to answer. How is it possible to force/ get a long term advantage when playing the symmetric 1...e5 if white doesnt want to go along?  I just dont get this.

The open  sicilian with an extra centre pawn in the late middlegame/endagame is another story.

But with the classical 1...e5 I think this project of yours is just not possible.
Ben
  

People dont live or die, people just float
B Dylan
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 107
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #7 - 07/29/13 at 17:48:53
Post Tools
tony37 wrote on 07/29/13 at 17:04:30:
and what's the reason you don't play the Caro-Kann if you want something Caro-Kann-like?


I am a long time 1...e5 player, so I am curious about the possibilities available right now.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 559
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #6 - 07/29/13 at 17:04:30
Post Tools
and what's the reason you don't play the Caro-Kann if you want something Caro-Kann-like?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 107
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #5 - 07/29/13 at 16:43:59
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 07/29/13 at 15:48:23:
In the OP, "highly favorable" seems a bit much to ask. 


I guess I should have explained more - thanks for your answers, by the way!

My intention is not over-prepare an opponent by structuring a repertoire with 'endgame lines' only - and -+ lines, too. One could compare it with the Caro-Kann (the way Karpov played it). In this opening, you do not exchange queens so often, especially in the opening. You try to keep pieces on board, gives white some initiative while offering him a resilient structure against which he is hard-pressed to find a suitable pawn. Step by step, you methodically extinguish his initiative or his attack, exchange bad pieces for good ones, and stir the game to an endgame, or a static position, where you can 'technically' work his weaknesses.

To summarize, I am not looking for 'pure' endgame lines - the fact that I quoted two, and this topic this title was a bit misleading, i reckon -, but solid lines that have this trend : long-term advantages, ultra-resilient position, and exchange pieces mechanic. Something like 'soak up' defences.
« Last Edit: 07/29/13 at 19:28:49 by nocteus »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4410
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #4 - 07/29/13 at 14:51:16
Post Tools
And of course the Spanish Four Knights thing depends on White not playing e.g. the traditional main move 5. Ba4.

In the Scotch Four Knights there is 5...Bb4 6. Nxc6 bc 7. Bd3 d5 8. ed Qe7+ to reach a queenless position -- I recall Karpov playing this, but I think it's generally considered slightly better for White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3417
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #3 - 07/29/13 at 14:32:22
Post Tools
Against the Italian you can steer for an endgame with 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxe4 8.Bxb4 Nxb4 9.Bxf7 Kxf7 10.Qb3 Kf8 11.Qxb4 Qe7, but against the more common 5.d3 there's no easy way to force the queens off. Against the Spanish Four Knights you can reach an endgame with 4...Nd4 5.Nxd4 exd4 6.e5 dxc3 7.exf6 Qxf6 8.dxc3 Qe7 9.Qe2 but it's a pretty boring endgame.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 559
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #2 - 07/29/13 at 13:16:29
Post Tools
another idea is the Scotch endgame, the most common version is 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nxc6 bxc6 6. e5 Qe7 7. Qe2 Nd5 8. c4 Ba6 9. b3 g6 10. g3 Bg7 11. Bb2 O-O 12. Bg2 Rae8 13. O-O Bxe5 14. Qxe5 Qxe5 15. Bxe5 Rxe5 16. cxd5 Bxf1 17. Kxf1 cxd5
of course there are many ways to deviate earlier
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1939
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 1...e5 Endgame repertoire
Reply #1 - 07/29/13 at 12:25:08
Post Tools
As black? No Smiley White has a decent chance of deciding the nature of play like this but black doesn't to any great extent. Not even with the Berlin, cf 4 d3 etc.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 107
Joined: 04/29/11
1...e5 Endgame repertoire
07/29/13 at 11:49:18
Post Tools
Hi,
I intend to play, for sometime, a repertoire revolving around endgames or 'technical' play. I wondered if it could be possible to build an exhaustive one offering positions, a bit in Caro-Kann spirit, where you 'leave' the middlegame to white, do not fight for initiative, temper white's, and focus only on the transition to a higly favorable endgame (or a static position) mainly by means of good/bad pieces exchanges.

For now:

Spanish, Berlin
Capablanca Endgame

Thanks!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo