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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian (Read 23957 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #30 - 08/16/14 at 00:53:58
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MartinC wrote on 02/12/14 at 15:49:39:
I wonder what the idea of Rd1 is if black doesn't go e4? As it happened whites Q side play looked quite fast by French vs the KIA standards but I guess the extra tempo should be good for that.


It's basically a useful waiting move; if Black doesn't go ...e4 then White will continue to play them, i.e. moves like b2-b3 and h2-h3.  It reminds me of this game between Seirawan and Smyslov:




The game itself is different, but the point is that there is a big waiting game going on, White wants to keep the option of Bc1-a3 in case of ...e4 and ...d5, for instance.  9.Rd1 in the Grischuk game particularly discourages the immediate 9...c6 because of the weakness of the d6-square (though sometimes Black can live with that weakness).
« Last Edit: 08/16/14 at 16:53:23 by ErictheRed »  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #29 - 08/15/14 at 18:12:51
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As far as I know, the Colle System is known to lose its bite against kingside fianchetto systems.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #28 - 02/12/14 at 19:20:52
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Well, h3/...h6 and g4/...g5 should be more of an issue without 0-0/...0-0 ...

There's the thought that Caruana's ...Bf5 looks right due to Nd5 being a threat with Rac1 in, but 13...N8h7 with the idea 14. Nd5 Nxd5 15. cd Nf6 looks possible ...
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #27 - 02/12/14 at 17:51:20
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MartinC wrote on 02/12/14 at 15:49:39:
I wonder what the idea of Rd1 is if black doesn't go e4?


I suppose you could speculate that it's to make d4xe5 into a threat of sorts, thereby provoking e5-e4.

Contrary to Nimzo's stuff about overprotection, there's a case for not playing Bf4/5. Not only does it get hit by Nd5/4 but there's also h3/6 and g4/5 hitting the Bishop. You can often take the g pawn, but then the e pawn may fall.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #26 - 02/12/14 at 16:50:23
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I notice that in a comparable reversed-color case (1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. Ngf3 c5 5. g3 Nc6 6. Bg2 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1 Qc7 9. e5 Nd7 10. Qe2 b5 11. h4 Bb7 12. Nf1 Nb6), Taimanov thirty years ago thought White shouldn't be in a hurry to play Bf4.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #25 - 02/12/14 at 15:49:39
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Well I've just checked chessbases online data and there is a Grischuk game when Caruana played d6 against him - he seems to have done this 4 e3/5 Be2 a few times now. More at quickplay time limits granted.

I wonder what the idea of Rd1 is if black doesn't go e4? As it happened whites Q side play looked quite fast by French vs the KIA standards but I guess the extra tempo should be good for that.
(If not an objective advantage.).

Certainly looks more fun than the direct dxe5/e4 idea.

  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #24 - 02/12/14 at 14:39:19
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leavenfish wrote on 09/22/13 at 16:40:54:
chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 08/13/13 at 09:15:52:
I was playing colle with white as a side line...but started having some problems it against gruenfeld or kings Indian setup..So I stopped playing it..Is there any ways for white to gain any advantage??? or colle is bad against gruenfeld or kid setups ???
rz

Try Yusupov's recommendations in Boost Your Chess 3 Mastery. Simple and frankly, OTB everyone I've played these lines against gets frustrated because it doesn't allow them to play normal set-ups. I'm not saying it gets you an edge...but playing on YOUR TURF is half the battle OTB.


What does Yusupov recommend?

Oh I actually played e3, oo, and push my queenside pawns (like in the French defence but your white) and had good games.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #23 - 11/28/13 at 01:11:09
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kylemeister wrote on 11/27/13 at 16:31:59:
(Edit:  also just incidentally, there was a comparable game today in the World Cup between IM Ezat and GM Movsesian:  1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. c4 g6 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. e4 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Qc2 c6 9. Rd1 Qe7 10. dxe5 dxe5 11. b3 Re8 12. a4 a5 13. Ba3 Nc5, drawn in 93.)


That's certainly a way of playing, if you like that type of position for White. If you play the Kings Indian as Black, it's also a position you are liable to meet.

There seems little point in deliberately playing it a tempo down as advocated in
http://www.zuka-chess-opening.net/resources/g6Intro.pdf

Whilst it's possible to play e3 stuff against the Grunfeld and perhaps the Benoni to transpose to the English, it's a bit pointless against the Kings Indian unless you are trying to make a reverse opening work. Thus as White you use ideas also seen played by Black in various anti-Sicilian and anti-French setups


  
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kylemeister
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #22 - 11/27/13 at 16:31:59
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I would think of the line in question as a 7...Nbd7 Classical where White has played 8. de, with ...Re8 added.  Incidentally I noticed that Panczyk & Ilczuk's book of a few years ago reached the position after 10. e4 c6 with the move b3 added and had it as leading to equality, though at a glance I would have thought the continuation they gave favored Black.  (Edit:  also just incidentally, there was a comparable game today in the World Cup between IM Ezat and GM Movsesian:  1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. c4 g6 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. e4 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. Qc2 c6 9. Rd1 Qe7 10. dxe5 dxe5 11. b3 Re8 12. a4 a5 13. Ba3 Nc5, drawn in 93.)

A possible "grand plan" for White in such positions could involve Be3, Rd1, b4, c5, Nd2-c4-d6 (comparable to some stuff in the Closed Spanish).
« Last Edit: 11/27/13 at 21:27:54 by kylemeister »  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #21 - 11/27/13 at 16:05:09
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 11/27/13 at 05:48:03:
Can some one please post model games for white

Just look at model games for the normal Exchange Variation to get the ideas down.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #20 - 11/27/13 at 11:56:11
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 11/27/13 at 05:48:03:
Can some one please post model games for white?


If it's the line against the Kings Indian above, that's quite difficult as in the thirty or so games that have reached the position, Black has won most of them, even when it's been White to move.

I don't have the book, but why does Rudel recommend this way of playing, given that you can reach the same position with an extra move if you employ an exchange variation that has e2-e4 played as one move rather than two? Admittedly engines quite like exchange variations against the Kings Indian, but they score the version with White to move higher than with Black to move.

I suppose that's a hint to authors, namely to check their recommended tabiyas against databases. If they don't do, their potential readership will.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #19 - 11/27/13 at 05:48:03
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Can some one please post model games for white
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #18 - 11/09/13 at 08:11:05
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kylemeister wrote on 11/07/13 at 21:17:11:
I thought I saw something indicating that Rudel advocated White playing like this (in some order):  1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 0-0 5. e3 d6 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. 0-0 e5 8. Qc2 Re8 9. de de 10. e4; I wonder if that is the case.


Yes, Rudel does recommend that line, and his move order is: 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Nc3 0-0 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. 0-0 Re8 8. Qc2 e5 9. dxe5 dxe5 10. e4

  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #17 - 11/09/13 at 05:30:03
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Don't tell me, tell Rudel   Smiley   (if he in fact recommended this)
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #16 - 11/08/13 at 18:20:33
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kylemeister wrote on 11/08/13 at 16:57:10:
RdC wrote on 11/08/13 at 15:43:48:
That would just be a tempo down on a position which could plausibly be reached via an exchange variation. Most Kings Indian players would have a reasonable idea on how to play that type of position. One decent try is to play N d7 -f8 -e6 -d4. If allowed this can be coupled with B c8-g4 xf3.


Yup, that's why I was wondering.  I suppose there might be a claim that (the extra) ...Re8 is suboptimal, but still.


Come on, this is just nothing for White.  Sure Black probably wouldn't spend a whole tempo playing ...Re8 so early, but I think he'd be quite happy to get the move in for free.  It facilitates the aforementioned knight maneuver as well as ...Bf8-c5, for instance.  Black isn't going to be in a hurry to play ...f5 anyway; the Rook is on a better square than f8. 

Incidentally 9...Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Rxe5!?  looks perfectly good for Black, doesn't it?  I'd probably play that way. 

I mean this isn't the type of position you analyze or prepare for as Black, or aim for as White.  It's just chess and Black is fine.  Reminds me a bit of 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. Bf4 Nf6 7. e3 Qb6 8.Qd2 Ne4! 9. Qc1 (because after 9.Nxe4 de Black threatens both ...Bb4 and the Knight on f3).  White can play like this if he wants, but there's nothing to see. 

 
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #15 - 11/08/13 at 16:57:10
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RdC wrote on 11/08/13 at 15:43:48:
That would just be a tempo down on a position which could plausibly be reached via an exchange variation. Most Kings Indian players would have a reasonable idea on how to play that type of position. One decent try is to play N d7 -f8 -e6 -d4. If allowed this can be coupled with B c8-g4 xf3.


Yup, that's why I was wondering.  I suppose there might be a claim that (the extra) ...Re8 is suboptimal, but still.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #14 - 11/08/13 at 15:43:48
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kylemeister wrote on 11/07/13 at 21:17:11:
[quote author=1B23223F222229202B4C0 link=1376385352/3#3 date=1377477050]
I thought I saw something indicating that Rudel advocated White playing like this (in some order):  1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 0-0 5. e3 d6 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. 0-0 e5 8. Qc2 Re8 9. de de 10. e4


That would just be a tempo down on a position which could plausibly be reached via an exchange variation. Most Kings Indian players would have a reasonable idea on how to play that type of position. One decent try is to play N d7 -f8 -e6 -d4. If allowed this can be coupled with B c8-g4 xf3.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #13 - 11/07/13 at 21:17:11
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/26/13 at 00:30:50:
Although I don't believe in every line, Rudel's Zuka contains some nice idea that often pack quite a bit of poison.  His repertoire ideas against the KI and Gruenfeld feature a very early e3.


I thought I saw something indicating that Rudel advocated White playing like this (in some order):  1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 0-0 5. e3 d6 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. 0-0 e5 8. Qc2 Re8 9. de de 10. e4; I wonder if that is the case.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #12 - 09/23/13 at 09:06:17
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Fllg wrote on 09/22/13 at 19:13:08:
Indeed, something like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Be2 0-0 5.0-0 c5 6.c4 cxd4 7.exd4 d5 (reversed Tarrasch) or 7.Nxd4 Nc6 which can be reached via different move orders is known to be quite comfortable for Black.


You can plausibly get there from the 4. e3 Gruenfeld as well.

One of the better defences to the Smyslov line against the Kings Indian is this same idea to play .. c5, .. cxd4 and .. d5 .
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #11 - 09/23/13 at 00:24:03
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Nobody should be surprised as this is a silly line from the Panov Caro-Kann: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nf3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.O-O O-O and can anyone imagine White playing like that?
  

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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #10 - 09/22/13 at 19:18:10
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Indeed 5...c5 and a reversed Tarrasch might be the best way to go for Black. I could never find a way for White to really exploit his extra tempo in those positions.
  

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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #9 - 09/22/13 at 19:13:08
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Indeed, something like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Be2 0-0 5.0-0 c5 6.c4 cxd4 7.exd4 d5 (reversed Tarrasch) or 7.Nxd4 Nc6 which can be reached via different move orders is known to be quite comfortable for Black.

It´s surprisingly difficult to make something out of the extra tempo in the reversed Tarrasch.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #8 - 09/22/13 at 18:55:11
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One normal thing would be for that to become a reversed Tarrasch Defense.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #7 - 09/22/13 at 18:46:56
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I did accidentally stumble into something almost like that as white - 1 Nf3 g6 2 c4 Bg7 3 Nc3 c5 4 e3 Nf6 5 d4 o-o 6 Be2. Not really me, but it turned awfully pleasant surprisingly easily: 6 ..  Na6 7 o-o d6 8 Re1 b6 9 d5.
(I'd got mixed up with the c5/Nc6 lines where e3 ^ d4 is meant to be good.).

It is of course really harmless if white is genuinely allergic to ever playing d5 or e4! Maybe black has to take on d4 at some earlier point, or wait differently. Got a fun finish with three passed pawns beating two rooks so certainly not doomed to dull chess Smiley

The Symslov system with Bg5 before e3 seems like it may well be a more logical way to play this sort of style of position as white.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #6 - 09/22/13 at 18:34:14
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TN wrote on 09/22/13 at 17:49:41:
In the recent ACP Rapid, Grischuk gave Nepomniachtchi some problems with a Colle setup, but with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.Be2. Nepomniachtchi played 5...d5 both times from memory, and after 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.e4 (now Black does not have ...Nxc3 like in a normal Grunfeld) 7...Nb6 8.0-0 White had chances for an advantage. At first I couldn't understand why Ian didn't play 5...d6, but I realised that after the logical moves 6.0-0 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 we have a French KIA with colours reversed and an extra tempo for White! As others have said, it's not an objective advantage for White but I think the extra tempo makes his position easier to play - the one tempo makes a big difference if Black plays in normal KIA style with ...e4.


Yes, the "King's Indian Attack Reversed" as that line was once dubbed.

Playing ...c5 rather than ...d5 or ...d6 could also lead to some known stuff ...
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #5 - 09/22/13 at 17:49:41
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In the recent ACP Rapid, Grischuk gave Nepomniachtchi some problems with a Colle setup, but with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.Be2. Nepomniachtchi played 5...d5 both times from memory, and after 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.e4 (now Black does not have ...Nxc3 like in a normal Grunfeld) 7...Nb6 8.0-0 White had chances for an advantage. At first I couldn't understand why Ian didn't play 5...d6, but I realised that after the logical moves 6.0-0 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 we have a French KIA with colours reversed and an extra tempo for White! As others have said, it's not an objective advantage for White but I think the extra tempo makes his position easier to play - the one tempo makes a big difference if Black plays in normal KIA style with ...e4.

Note: While this post technically belongs under 'Daring Defences to 1.d4' I think it's of more relevance to Colle players (who could reach the same position with a quick c4).
  

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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #4 - 09/22/13 at 16:40:54
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 08/13/13 at 09:15:52:
I was playing colle with white as a side line...but started having some problems it against gruenfeld or kings Indian setup..So I stopped playing it..Is there any ways for white to gain any advantage??? or colle is bad against gruenfeld or kid setups ???


Try Yusupov's recommendations in Boost Your Chess 3 Mastery. Simple and frankly, OTB everyone I've played these lines against gets frustrated because it doesn't allow them to play normal set-ups. I'm not saying it gets you an edge...but playing on YOUR TURF is half the battle OTB.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #3 - 08/26/13 at 00:30:50
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Although I don't believe in every line, Rudel's Zuka contains some nice idea that often pack quite a bit of poison.  His repertoire ideas against the KI and Gruenfeld feature a very early e3.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #2 - 08/16/13 at 12:14:39
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Against the KID and Gruenfeld, go for the Barry Attack a la Summerscale.  The fly in the ointment is that black can play 1.d4 Nf6; 2.Nf3 d5; 3.e3 and then play 3...g6, ruling out the Barry. In that case try the Colle Zukertort in case of ...c5 or Schechter Slav after ...c6 - both the latter are very solid for Black so expect a  long drawn out game.
  
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Re: Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
Reply #1 - 08/13/13 at 10:51:35
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 08/13/13 at 09:15:52:
or colle is bad against gruenfeld or kid setups ???


At a pinch, the Zukertort version with b3 and c4 might give a playable position against the Kings Indian and playing c4, Nc3 and Be2 is a main line, if unchallenging, against the Grunfeld.

Books advocating the Colle usually have to propose a non-Colle solution. One approach I met in practice was the sequence 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. e3 d5 4. b4 with the idea of restraining Black's Grunfeld activity that starts with .. c5.
  
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Colle vs Gruenfeld or Kings Indian
08/13/13 at 09:15:52
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I was playing colle with white as a side line...but started having some problems it against gruenfeld or kings Indian setup..So I stopped playing it..Is there any ways for white to gain any advantage??? or colle is bad against gruenfeld or kid setups ???
  
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