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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C58: Main line Two Knights' Defense (Read 16087 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: C58: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #16 - 08/18/13 at 07:26:54
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Sloughter, your commentary makes no sense.

Once again, you post a solitaire game against a computer as if it has deep meaning for the variation but you do not show any connection between your game and the theory of the game. You do not even point out obvious places where the computer inexplicably did not make the best moves.

You seem to believe that a "universal position" (a term you coined, and only you seem to understand) is something desirable. But in this game, you claim it in a position that you also claim is lost for black. Your commentary doesn't even make sense in your own terms.

The reason your posts do not get responses from others is that your posts are not relevant.

This thread will now be locked.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #15 - 08/18/13 at 05:19:54
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:47:41:
Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.


While it is generally believed that Houdini 3 Pro is "unbeatable", I've beaten the engine twice today. Here is the second win. The program has a software defect. In a poor position the computer failed to play its 40th move, started the second time control and then ran out the clock without making a move.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Bb7 (This is a solid developing move that is not in ECO or MCO 15) 9. Ba4 Be7 10. O-O O-O 11. d3 c5 (Sometimes Houdini chooses Bc5 here. It says this is +/-) 12. Qe2 Nc6?! (Perhaps the losing move. It is better to play Nd7/Nb6) 13. c3 Nd5 (Black has a Universal Position) 14. Nf3! f6 (More or less forced; the threat is Bxc6 picking up a second pawn)15.Na3 Qc7 16. Nc4 Rfd8 17. g3! (White intends to play Ne3 and wants to keep the Knight out of f4) Na5 18. Nxa5 Qxa5 19. Bc2 Qc7 20. Nd2! Qc6 21. f3 (Now there are no more mate threats) Rab8 (Black has no way to improve his position, but White can make steady progress) 22.Nc4 Qd7 23. Bd2 Bc6 24. Rad1 Kh8 25. b3 Nc7 26. a4 Ba8 27. Rf2 Bf8 28.h4 Qh3 29. Rg2 Nd5 30. Qf2 h5 31. Rf1 Qe6 32. Kh2 Nb6 33. Ne3 Nd5 34. Nd1 Kg8
35. Rfg1 Ne7 36. Re1 Bd5 37. c4 Ba8 38. Nc3 Nc6 39. Ne2 Bd6 40. Bc3 * 1-0 (Time) Houdini when I blitzed out moves after the game does think it can play g4 with a winning attack
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #14 - 08/16/13 at 10:17:34
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:47:41:
Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.


Fourteen years ago I introduced the concept of universal positions. They are among the most common positions in all of chess, and, perhaps the most important. They can be reached from Classical Chess or Hypermodern chess. Universal chess is the third major school of chess. The only universal position commonly played with White is the King's Indian Saemisch, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 (You will observe that White has all his pieces in back of his pawns, there are fewer than two half open files or one open file and no piece is farther advanced that the farthest advanced pawn. I define this as a universal position. Houdini 3 Pro is so deadly because it understands how to switch from Classical chess to Universal chess back to Classical chess. Watch how often Houdini 3 Pro plays universal positions in this variation of the Two Knights' Defense:

8.Qf3 Bb7?! (This is a rock solid developing move that Houdini 3 Pro greatly prefers to any other variation even though it is not in ECO Edition 5 or MCO 15; Houdini sees long-term positional compensation anchored on its understanding of universal positions; since I lost the first 8...Bb7 game, I thought I'd try a second time, which I soon lost. Here is the third try) 9.Ba4 Be7 10.O-O O-O 11.d3 (You will observe that both sides are playing Classical chess) c5 12.Qe2 (The first piece steps in back of the pawn wall) Nc6 (The Knight steps in back of the pawns) 13.c3 (Preparing Bc2)

Universal positions are so common that in one issue of Inside Chess, I counted over 50 Universal positions that occurred in just one issue. I first began to study them in 1994 when I played 30 postal games with the same first five moves 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...e6/4...Ne7/5...O-O. I call this the Universal Attack because it can be used against any opening. It is always followed by d5, never d6 distinguishing it from a Modern, Rat, or Hippo.


13...Nd5 (Houdini 3 Pro just achieved a Universal Position).

Only one Grandmaster, to the best of my knowledge, fully understands Universal positions---former World Champion Anatoly Karpov. His understanding of chess is so profound that it prompted the editor of Inside Chess to say (paraphrasing him) Yasser Seirawan, “Karpov is the most confounding player of all times; he has all his pieces on the first and second rank and yet White is better.” That is because he had a universal position. The only game I have ever seen where both players played universal chess the entire game was a game Karpov-Ivanchuk where the only time Karpov stepped out of a UP was to exchange Queens)

14.Nf3 f6 (This is a loss of time because Black will have to play f5 in two moves) 14.Bc2 (White is one move away from a UP) 15.Bc2 Qd7 16.Rd1 Rac8 17.h3 Kh8 18.Ne1! (A UP) Nd8! & Houdini prefers Black. Despite being a pawn up, White must fight for the draw because Black has a powerful Kingside attack.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #13 - 08/15/13 at 11:03:05
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:47:41:
Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.



Because Houdini 3 Pro is so strong the programmers apparently have the mistaken belief that it can play "anything" and win; I've already noticed it plays a lot of "junk"; look at the previous game. Here it plays an obscure variation of the main line more than any other continuation, yet clearly stands worse:

8.Qf3 Bb7?! 9.Ba4 Be7 10.O-O O-O 11.d3 c5 12.Qe2 Nc6 (You can't just give us "weak" humans a clear plan and expect to do well) 13.c3 (obviously; now White can play Bc2, hold d3 forever, develop effortlessly and just push the Queenside pawns) Nd5 14.Nf3 f6 (This is a distress signal; clearly Houdini doesn't like its position) 15.Na3 Qc7 16.Bc2 +/=
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #12 - 08/15/13 at 10:03:34
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/15/13 at 05:20:13:
sloughter wrote on 08/14/13 at 20:39:11:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:47:41:
Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.


In the first game the critical move is 15.Qf3; I know how to do diagrams on chess.com; I don't know how to do diagrams here.

To do a diagram with a game, click "pgn" To do a diagram of a position click the chessboard (fen).


Since you yourself claim to be done with this thread, I will give it a few days then lock it.


I am done with only one of the two variations. In the 8.Qf3 h6 line, I got a clear advantage against Houdini 3 Pro:

9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Ba4! Be7 11.Nec3! O-O 12.d3 Be6 13.O-O f5 (You will note that this pawn move hits nothing giving White time for---) 14.Qe2! Bf6 (This is the start of a bad plan, but there is nothing better; Black has not hope of Queenside threats as long as White can play Bb3) 14.Bd2 Rb8 (A useless move as long as White has---) 15.Bb3 Kh8?! (If a non-developing move like this is best, clearly Black has problems. The problem facing Black is that the Bishop may hang with check in some variations) 16.Na3 Bg8 17.Rad1 (With a disguised attack on the Queen and just centralizing my Rooks) Nxb3 (If this weren't a computer, I would swear this was frustration) 18.axb3 Qc7 19.Nc4 Nf4 20.Bxf4 exf4 21.Rfe1 +/= Black has the double minor exchange, but, in this position all Black can do is try to push his Kingside pawns; meanwhile, White has a mobile four to two pawn majority on the Queenside.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #11 - 08/15/13 at 05:20:13
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sloughter wrote on 08/14/13 at 20:39:11:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:47:41:
Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.


In the first game the critical move is 15.Qf3; I know how to do diagrams on chess.com; I don't know how to do diagrams here.

To do a diagram with a game, click "pgn" To do a diagram of a position click the chessboard (fen).


Since you yourself claim to be done with this thread, I will give it a few days then lock it.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #10 - 08/15/13 at 01:33:02
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:47:41:
Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.


No need to. Houdini played a second best move right at the start. I just got my Houdini 3 Pro version. It meets 10.Ne4 with the correct Nd5 =. 9.Be2 is positional while 9.Bd3 is sharper. Both appear to lead to about an equal position.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #9 - 08/14/13 at 20:39:11
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:47:41:
Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.


In the first game the critical move is 15.Qf3; I know how to do diagrams on chess.com; I don't know how to do diagrams here.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #8 - 08/14/13 at 16:48:32
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sloughter wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:55:03:
[quote author=614D5E47435A454F442C0 link=1376401239/11#11 date=1376487321]
I am referring to the "main line" as 5...Na5; no one besides specialists regard 5...Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 as the main line & I would like to inform you here that according to GM Dzindzichashvili relying on Houdini 3 and Komodo believes that 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6+! Nxc6 10.Qxc6+ Bd7 11.Qf3 O-O?! 12.Nc3 as +/=)

Why would you want competition between two 1700 players when one of the player is a 3300 machine that is much more likely to find best play for Black? Surely you don't believe that two 2300 humans play better chess than a 3300 computer. Are you interested at getting at the truth (Roman is big on finding the "truth"; practical play to him in an analytical mode is meaningless)


Is Dzindzi analysing with you or is it just in your head? And apparently your computer program is not playing at optimal strength, as you have posted yourself.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #7 - 08/14/13 at 15:55:03
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Markovich wrote on 08/14/13 at 13:35:21:
sloughter wrote on 08/13/13 at 13:40:39:
Post members on chess.com and chesspub.com have maintained that Black is equal in the main line of the Two Knights' Defense. Here in a new try by White to achieve a plus. While my Houdini has suspect programming there doesn't appear to be any way for Black to improve. This is Moody-Houdini 3  60'40  30'20  30

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.cxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Rb8?! (Be7 is better)...


So, if 8...Be7 is better, how does what follows bear on the question of the "The Main Line of the Two Knights Defense?" 

Also after 8...Rb8 9.Be2 Be7 10.Ne4 Nxe4 11.Qxe4, the move 11...Qc7 has never been played.  In my db, 11...0-0 has been played in eight games, producing a 50% score for White (see here https://1e5.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=140655&b=0&c=140656&d=0). So it would be nice if sloughter would compare his computerized variations to existing practice; otherwise, they are pretty useless.  Sloughter, you can do this for free on my website, which is presents a deep table of variations of, essentially, the entirety of modern correspondence and OTB practice.

That is my reply to the OP.  You read the rest of this, and it's just so much blather.

I would hope that the next game score sloughter puts up here is a game of actual chess, played OTB between himself and a human opponent.


I am referring to the "main line" as 5...Na5; no one besides specialists regard 5...Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 as the main line & I would like to inform you here that according to GM Dzindzichashvili relying on Houdini 3 and Komodo believes that 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6+! Nxc6 10.Qxc6+ Bd7 11.Qf3 O-O?! 12.Nc3 as +/=)

Why would you want competition between two 1700 players when one of the player is a 3300 machine that is much more likely to find best play for Black? Surely you don't believe that two 2300 humans play better chess than a 3300 computer. Are you interested at getting at the truth (Roman is big on finding the "truth"; practical play to him in an analytical mode is meaningless)

As for your suggestion of 11...O-O, it appears to be no better than Qc7 at equalizing; here is a possible move stream:

12.Nc3 Rb4 13.Qe3 c5 14.Bf3 Rd4 15.d3 c4 16.Qxe5! cxd3 17.cxd3 Rxd3 18.O-O Nc4 19.Qe2 Bf5 20.Bd5 Nb6 21.Bb3 +/- Black has practically no compensation for the pawn.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #6 - 08/14/13 at 15:47:41
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Sloughter, just focus on what you think was the key moment in your game. Give us a diagram, explain why it was the key moment, and get rid of the rest of the moves.

I will come back later and clean up this thread.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #5 - 08/14/13 at 15:38:26
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/14/13 at 13:42:20:
Quote:
Show me any flaws in my analysis.

When are you going to realise, sloughter, that few if any of us are likely to do that, because what you post isn’t really analysis in any meaningful sense of the term? – all it really is is random engine output, unmediated by any significant human evaluation and instead larded with the odd bit of metatheoretical waffle delivered with an air of surety that a GM would feel embarrassed about.

We’ve told you time and again now that this stuff isn’t interesting, since it stems from an approach that’s utterly wrongheaded (as well as just a tad obsessive), so why do you keep banging your head – and ours – against the wall? I can’t see what you gain from this. Bibs is surely right. If you see yourself as being on some sort of mission you surely must want to persuade as many people as you can about your ideas, and a personal blog is self-evidently the way to do this. Go for it! After all, you’re not going to persuade us, but you must surely want to persuade some people, otherwise why bother at all?


This illustrates why it is difficult to know how much analysis is appropriate; this is just analysis of one move:

8.Qf3 Rb8 (Other choices are Be7, h6, Qc7 and cxb5; of these the best choice is Be7) 9.Be2! (I had been led to believe by other theoreticians that 9.Bd3 is better, but after O-O 10.Nc3 g6; g6 is to be preferred both in the Be7 variation [according to GM Roman Dzindzichashvili relying on Houdini 3 and Komodo this is =; the primary reason is that it takes away the resource Ne4/Ng3/Bf5 +/=] and in the Rb8/Bd3 line) Now 9...Bg4? 10.Qg3 Bxe2 11.Qxe5+ Be7 12.Qxe2 +/-) Be7 10.Ne4! (White decides to dull the effect of the Kingside pawn storm which is Black's  primary source of counter play) 10...Nxe4 11.Qxe4 Qc7 12.O-O O-O 13.Nc3 Bc5?! (Wasting a tempo in a sharp position can't be good; Black plans Bd4, but after Nd1!/c3/b4 it looks like a dubious plan; Black must make a developing move here) 14.b3 f5 15.Qh4?! (Since this only leads to apparent equality, White must try 15.Qf3) 15.Qf3 Rf6 16.d3 Bd4 17.Bd2 Nb7 18.Rad1 Nc5 19.h4! +/= Bd7! (Better than Be6 so that Black can hit the h5 square from e8, not f7 which blocks the f-file) 20.Qg3 Ne6 21.Na4 f4 22.Qh2 c5 23.c3 c4 24.Bxd4 Nxd4 25.Bd3 Bc6 26.Bc3 Rbd8 27.Rfe1 e4 28.Bf1 Rfd6 29.Rd2! Nf3+ 30.gxf3 Rxd2 31.Bxd2 Rxd2 32.fxe4 +/-

Thus, it would appear, that White was justified in playing Qf3 which is the tactical choice as opposed to Qh4 which is the positional choice i.e. it gains a tempo.
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #4 - 08/14/13 at 13:42:20
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Quote:
Show me any flaws in my analysis.

When are you going to realise, sloughter, that few if any of us are likely to do that, because what you post isn’t really analysis in any meaningful sense of the term? – all it really is is random engine output, unmediated by any significant human evaluation and instead larded with the odd bit of metatheoretical waffle delivered with an air of surety that a GM would feel embarrassed about.

We’ve told you time and again now that this stuff isn’t interesting, since it stems from an approach that’s utterly wrongheaded (as well as just a tad obsessive), so why do you keep banging your head – and ours – against the wall? I can’t see what you gain from this. Bibs is surely right. If you see yourself as being on some sort of mission you surely must want to persuade as many people as you can about your ideas, and a personal blog is self-evidently the way to do this. Go for it! After all, you’re not going to persuade us, but you must surely want to persuade some people, otherwise why bother at all?
  
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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #3 - 08/14/13 at 13:35:21
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sloughter wrote on 08/13/13 at 13:40:39:
Post members on chess.com and chesspub.com have maintained that Black is equal in the main line of the Two Knights' Defense. Here in a new try by White to achieve a plus. While my Houdini has suspect programming there doesn't appear to be any way for Black to improve. This is Moody-Houdini 3  60'40  30'20  30

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.cxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Rb8?! (Be7 is better)...


So, if 8...Be7 is better, how does what follows bear on the question of the "The Main Line of the Two Knights Defense?" 

Also after 8...Rb8 9.Be2 Be7 10.Ne4 Nxe4 11.Qxe4, the move 11...Qc7 has never been played.  In my db, 11...0-0 has been played in eight games, producing a 50% score for White (see here https://1e5.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=140655&b=0&c=140656&d=0). So it would be nice if sloughter would compare his computerized variations to existing practice; otherwise, they are pretty useless.  Sloughter, you can do this for free on my website, which is presents a deep table of variations of, essentially, the entirety of modern correspondence and OTB practice.

That is my reply to the OP.  You read the rest of this, and it's just so much blather.

I would hope that the next game score sloughter puts up here is a game of actual chess, played OTB between himself and a human opponent.
  

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Re: Main line Two Knights' Defense
Reply #2 - 08/14/13 at 06:51:03
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/14/13 at 06:28:28:
Slaughter, if you pay money and actually buy a copy of Houdini, your 'suspect programming' problem will be fixed.  Alternatively you could find a better source for your pirated software; as it is you're using a 2100ish engine for your 'analysis,' which makes your posts even more ridiculous than you realize.


The GM who analyzed the games I sent him using Houdini 3 when it was performing correctly said the engine was "good". On another site my play against Houdini was of sufficiently high quality that a member thought that it was a battle of Rybka versus Houdini.
  
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