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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached (Read 23604 times)
tony37
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #8 - 09/18/13 at 13:56:03
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I think abolishing the 50 move rule when a tablebase position is reached makes very very few practical difference.
Can you give an example of an actual correspondence game that was drawn because of the 50 move rule but would have been won without the rule? I've never seen one
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #7 - 09/18/13 at 13:55:56
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brabo wrote on 09/18/13 at 13:43:31:
That there are big differences in rules about how, where and when the moves are played, seem to me normal between correspondence and OTB. It is another thing if we start to change the basic rules of the board itself even if as small as a 50 move rule.

For pure correspondence players (so not active in OTB-play) this change will likely not be a problem. However assume an active OTB player playing correspondence to learn something about his petline. At some moment the player can achieve a TB which wins but will also need to break the 50 move rule. Seems to me a pretty annoying dilemma. Or you avoid the certain correspondence win to find out more about the correct OTB evalutation, risking not to win the game or you go for the immediate correspondence win but you are afterwards unsatisfied as you weren't able to fully test your petline.


When opening theory becomes fully reliant on what the TBs say, then I'd rather quit playing altogether....

But for the moment I don't see a problem. If the players follow the TBs manually or the result of the TB is enforced doesn't make much difference other than in the time spent...

And the number of position where a win in more than 50 moves is possible can hardly be high - especially in comparison with how many draws there will be adjudicated for every such win.

And an OTB player wanting to research his pet line can hardly expect to remember much of the analysis past move 30 or 40 as it is, so why would he care??
  
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brabo
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #6 - 09/18/13 at 13:43:31
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That there are big differences in rules about how, where and when the moves are played, seem to me normal between correspondence and OTB. It is another thing if we start to change the basic rules of the board itself even if as small as a 50 moves rule.

For pure correspondence players (so not active in OTB-play) this change will likely not be a problem. However assume an active OTB player playing correspondence to learn something about his petline. At some moment the player can achieve a TB which wins but will also need to break the 50 moves rule. Seems to me a pretty annoying dilemma. Or you avoid the certain correspondence win to find out more about the correct OTB evaluation, risking not to win the game or you go for the immediate correspondence win but you are afterwards unsatisfied as you weren't able to fully test your petline.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #5 - 09/18/13 at 13:12:35
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brabo wrote on 09/18/13 at 12:35:16:
TalJechin wrote on 09/18/13 at 12:11:34:
It would be nice if ICCF also decided to host the 7-men TB for its registered players and used it for adjudication as well.

I red on a german forum: http://f3.webmart.de/f.cfm?id=2035593&r=threadview&t=3995685&pg=1 that there are a lot of discussions still about which TBs will be accepted and which not.
Can we have 100% guarantee that the TBs don't contain errors?
Which TBs will be accepted? Only official ones available for the public or are own generated TBs also good as proof?
This last item can be important for defining the result.

Assume you have a specific 8 piece TB generated which proofs a win (e.g. via the finalgentool). However you need to break the 50 move-rule to achieve a win. For TBs accepted by ICCF you are allowed to break this rule so the win in such scenario depends if your TB will be accepted or not.


Yes, that's a good argument for ICCF to host and maintain the TB that is used for official adjudication.

As for the 50-move rule, it's a rather arbitrary rule. Not so long ago, when TBs made their appearance for real, FIDE did allow certain positions to take more than 50 moves.


And I'm more worried about FIDE's rule changes than anything ICCF can do. In some FIDE events you can even lose if you're not seated at the board when the clock starts.

In corr you can start the game two weeks before the official start date or 59 days and 23:59 minutes after it! (by taking a 30 day leave and use your 20 days + the remaining 20 with doubled time penalty for moving too slow) and in return you get 24 new hours for your next move.

So, the rules are already quite different and skipping the 50 move rule is just a tiny, tiny change in comparison.
  
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brabo
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #4 - 09/18/13 at 12:35:16
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TalJechin wrote on 09/18/13 at 12:11:34:
It would be nice if ICCF also decided to host the 7-men TB for its registered players and used it for adjudication as well.

I red on a german forum: http://f3.webmart.de/f.cfm?id=2035593&r=threadview&t=3995685&pg=1 that there are a lot of discussions still about which TBs will be accepted and which not.
Can we have 100% guarantee that the TBs don't contain errors?
Which TBs will be accepted? Only official ones available for the public or are own generated TBs also good as proof?
This last item can be important for defining the result.

Assume you have a specific 8 piece TB generated which proofs a win (e.g. via the finalgentool). However you need to break the 50 move-rule to achieve a win. For TBs accepted by ICCF you are allowed to break this rule so the win in such scenario depends if your TB will be accepted or not.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #3 - 09/18/13 at 12:11:34
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brabo wrote on 09/18/13 at 12:02:55:
TalJechin wrote on 09/18/13 at 11:41:33:
Considering that using engines, TBs, opening books, databases and so on are not allowed during play in FIDE events, that link is broken long ago.


I have the feeling that with touching the basic rules of what is a win/draw/loss a new important line has been crossed. The door is open for more changes to the basic rules. In fact with introducing in the last congress separate ratings for 960Chess, ICCF is already showing that they are not afraid of making further steps.


Yes, great! Using TBs to adjudicate games is standard for engine vs engine, so it should certainly be used for borg vs borg too.

It would be nice if ICCF also decided to host the 7-men TB for its registered players and used it for adjudication as well.
  
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #2 - 09/18/13 at 12:02:55
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TalJechin wrote on 09/18/13 at 11:41:33:
Considering that using engines, TBs, opening books, databases and so on are not allowed during play in FIDE events, that link is broken long ago.


I have the feeling that with touching the basic rules of what is a win/draw/loss a new important line has been crossed. The door is open for more changes to the basic rules. In fact with introducing in the last congress separate ratings for 960Chess, ICCF is already showing that they are not afraid of making further steps.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
Reply #1 - 09/18/13 at 11:41:33
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The disadvantage of course is that there is no clear link anymore between the fide and iccf basic rules.


Considering that using engines, TBs, opening books, databases and so on are not allowed during play in FIDE events, that link is broken long ago.

It's just silly to keep insisting on similar rules when the conditions are already so different.

Personally, I was more disappointed in the increase of yearly leave from 30 to 45 days and 10 moves in 50 days instead of 40. The sad truth is that the extra thinking time is mainly used to delay the results of the games. Or to allow players to play too many games at the same time, which seem to result in very slow play and little human input, if any.

Unlike OTB players, corr players (even high rated ones!) seldom have the skill to resign when the position is beyond repair - instead they often drone on a piece down (or about to lose a piece for nothing in 20 plies) to prolong the inevitable.
With faster computers and deeper tablebases play should get quicker, not slower, if correspondence chess wants to have a future.
  
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brabo
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50 moves rule cancelled in iccf when TB is reached
09/18/13 at 10:02:08
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Today I read on http://www.iccf-webchess.com/Message.aspx?message=557 that they decided to cancel the 50 moves rule when a tablebase is entered. To be able to do that they even had to change the statutes which before didn't permit to deviate from fide.

To understand the impact, i show the position below which i covered in my latest blogarticle: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/09/schaakintuitie-deel-2.html

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

(white to move)

If you use the finalgentool (which can be found on http://www.mtu-media.com/finalgen/home_ing.php) then you will notice that black needs 85 moves to win.
Now it isn't fully clear to me if this is feasible without breaking the 50 move rule. I found variations with suboptimal white moves which went beyond the 50 move rule but it is as well possible that suboptimal black moves could still do the job without breaking the 50 move rules (so winning in more than 85 moves in total).

From above it is clear that it isn't always simple to define if a tablebasewin can be done without breaking the 50 move rule. As iccf wants to give players the possibility to make claims based on tablebaseverdicts, likely the decision is made not to take the 50 move rule anymore into account.

The benefit of this decision is that players don't have to play out a tablebaseposition anymore for many extra months (years?) to get the expected result validated. The disadvantage of course is that there is no clear link anymore between the fide and iccf basic rules.

The decision doesn't surprise me. It is a logical step compared with the previous iccf decision to hide their databases for non-iccf members (so mainly fide-players). I've the impression that ICCF has chosen to distantiate themselves clearly from fide. Unclear to me if this is a good or bad thing.
  
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