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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8 (Read 15979 times)
MartinC
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #22 - 10/25/18 at 11:20:14
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It definitely doesn't look especially fun, but maybe fun is too risky in general these days Smiley
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #21 - 10/25/18 at 10:11:32
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FightingDragon wrote on 10/24/18 at 10:25:55:
Why not 13. ... Nf4: 14.Nd8: Bd8: 15.g3 Ng6 (instead of Tregubov's 13. ... bc6:)?
This looks more or less equal to me.


I see that most players prefer 13...Nxf4 here, and Romain played it himself a few days ago. Still, I think White must be a bit better here, he has more space and Black has the usual problems activating his light-squared bishop.
John Watson has been looking at the Armenian Variation a lot recently (particularly with 7...Kf8), but hasn't paid much attention to 11...h5 yet.
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #20 - 10/24/18 at 10:25:55
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Why not 13. ... Nf4: 14.Nd8: Bd8: 15.g3 Ng6 (instead of Tregubov's 13. ... bc6:)?
This looks more or less equal to me.
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #19 - 10/24/18 at 07:44:04
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Michael Ayton wrote on 05/05/18 at 07:25:13:
Quote:
The [line] that’s concerned me most so far is 6 b4 cd 7 Qg4 Kf8 8 Nb5 Bb6 9 Nf3 Nc6 10 Bb2 Nge7 11 Nbd4, when both 11 …Ng6 12 Nc6 bc 13 Bd3 a5 14 0-0 and 11 …h5 12 Qf4 Ng6 13 Nc6 bc 14 Qg3 look a little better for White to me.

It's coming to something when you quote yourself! But looking again at the 11 ...h5 line here I think I may have been too negative. I'd thought something like 14 Qg3 a5 15 Bd3 Ba6 16 0-0 Bd3 17 cd c5 18 bc was good for White, but maybe Black is OK ...

Yesterday the Russian grandmaster Pavel Tregubov tried 15...Ne7 but that is definitely no improvement. Looking at the time-consumption it seems that black was out book after 14.Qg3. Few grandmasters read this forum.

However more than likely the supergrandmaster Arkadij Naiditsch also found and liked 14.Qg3 at home. Amateurs or supergrandmasters we practically find all the same moves as we use the same tools. Still there is an enormous gap as we amateurs maybe check a couple of those positions while the supergrandmasters have done it for 1000x more positions.
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #18 - 05/05/18 at 10:04:14
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I vaguely thought we were trying to make it 'solid' Wink

9 .. Bc7 looks good fun a priori - e5 is gone so a really nice centre.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #17 - 05/05/18 at 07:25:13
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Quote:
The [line] that’s concerned me most so far is 6 b4 cd 7 Qg4 Kf8 8 Nb5 Bb6 9 Nf3 Nc6 10 Bb2 Nge7 11 Nbd4, when both 11 …Ng6 12 Nc6 bc 13 Bd3 a5 14 0-0 and 11 …h5 12 Qf4 Ng6 13 Nc6 bc 14 Qg3 look a little better for White to me.

It's coming to something when you quote yourself! But looking again at the 11 ...h5 line here I think I may have been too negative. I'd thought something like 14 Qg3 a5 15 Bd3 Ba6 16 0-0 Bd3 17 cd c5 18 bc was good for White, but maybe Black is OK ...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #16 - 05/04/18 at 19:34:41
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Quote:
Can't you just go 6.. Kf8 there?

I've no idea! But I don't see any strong players doing it.

Quote:
9.. Bc7 maybe, but its a very different kind of game 6 b4 cd 7 Qg4 Kf8 etc.

If so that's surely no detraction. The Armenian's a complex system; the 7 Nb5 Bc7 lines are different again.
  
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MartinC
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #15 - 05/04/18 at 19:21:13
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Can't you just go 6.. Kf8 there?

9.. Bc7 maybe, but its a very different kind of game 6 b4 cd 7 Qg4 Kf8 etc.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #14 - 05/04/18 at 07:39:24
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Quote:
Solid? No, never Smiley

I got quite interested in this, and it does look reasonably solid to me. What’s White’s best line? The one that’s concerned me most so far is 6 b4 cd 7 Qg4 Kf8 8 Nb5 Bb6 9 Nf3 Nc6 10 Bb2 Nge7 11 Nbd4, when both 11 …Ng6 12 Nc6 bc 13 Bd3 a5 14 0-0 and 11 …h5 12 Qf4 Ng6 13 Nc6 bc 14 Qg3 look a little better for White to me. Maybe the way to go is 11 …Ng6 12 Nc6 Nf4 13 Nd8 Bd8, when Black’s position looks very hard to crack? – this gets the best engine scores (for what that’s worth), and almost all the games I’ve seen reaching this position end in draws.

I presume that after 6 Qg4 Ne7 7 Qg7 Rg8 8 Qh7 cd 9 b4, Black should play 9 …Bc7, since 9 …dc?! 10 ba will transpose to the 6 b4 cd 7 Qg4 Ne7?! 8 ba dc 9 Qg7 Rg8 10 Qh7 Nbc6 11 Nf3! line now considered bad for Black.


  
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MartinC
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #13 - 04/29/18 at 21:35:51
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Solid? No, never Smiley

Popular I dunno unless they're making this Kf8 stuff work well. It got driven to near extinction when the Winaver PPawn style lines (seemingly?) got semi refuted a while back.
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #12 - 04/27/18 at 18:47:44
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Is 5...Aa5 becoming a solid, popular alternative to going down the 7. Dg4 road, similar to 6...Da5 ¿
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #11 - 04/27/18 at 08:35:49
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This line is very quickly gaining popularity. I published an extensive analysis about it in my latest article. I also made some advertisement for this site in the same article which probably can't harm either.  Grin
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2018/04/fashion-part-2.html
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #10 - 10/20/15 at 15:20:53
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/20/15 at 12:34:18:
I haven't looked. Has 7...Kf8 been played much since 2013?


Checked chessbase and it looks like it's been played about 20 times during 2014-15, which is twice as many times as during 2012-13
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #9 - 10/20/15 at 12:34:18
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I haven't looked. Has 7...Kf8 been played much since 2013?
  
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MartinC
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #8 - 10/20/15 at 09:37:12
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10 Bf4 in the game in the viewer above I imagine Smiley

Bit of a public place to store theory notes I'd have thought!
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #7 - 10/20/15 at 00:47:51
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Could you provide earlier moves please, and situate within the theory? Thanks Smiley
Helps readers to understand. And helps you to get responses. Everyone a winner!
  
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Re: C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #6 - 10/19/15 at 17:50:56
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According to Stockfish6 at depth of 30 10.Bf4 is busted by 10...h5.  Sorry for reviving an old thread but I did start it in the first place, plus I want somewhere to keep my notes for an upcoming thematic Winawer tournament on chess.com that includes an IM (http://www.chess.com/tournament/french-winawer6)

10.Bf4 h5
(10...h5 Stockfish 6 64 -0.98 (depth 31)  11.Qh3 a6 12.Nd6 Bc7 13.Nxc8 Qxc8 14.Be2 Nf6 15.exf6 Bxf4 16.fxg7+ Kxg7 17.O-O e5 18.Qxc8 Rhxc8 19.g3 Bh6 20.Rad1 f6 21.Rfe1 b6 22.Nh4 Ne7 23.Bxh5 Rxc2 24.f4 Rh8 25.Bg4 Rc3 26.Rxd4)

(10...h5 -1.08 (depth 31)  11.Qh4 Qxh4 12.Nxh4 Nge7 13.Be2 a6 14.Nd6 f6 15.exf6 gxf6 16.Bg3 e5 17.f3 Kg7 18.Bd3 Bc7 19.Nxc8 Nxc8 20.Nf5+ Kf7 21.O-O Nd6 22.Nxd6+ Bxd6 23.Rfb1 h4 24.Be1 Ne7 25.b5 a5 26.a4)

(10...h5 -1.26 (depth 30)  11.Qg3 h4 12.Qh3 Nf6 13.Nxh4 Kg8 14.exf6 Qxf6 15.Qg3 d3 16.O-O-O a6 17.Bg5 Qa1+ 18.Kd2 Qb2 19.Bxd3 axb5 20.Rb1 Qe5 21.Bxb5 f6 22.Bxc6 Qd4+ 23.Kc1 fxg5 24.Nf3 Qxf2 25.Qxf2 Bxf2 26.Bb5)

(10...h5 -1.27 (depth 30)  11.Qg5 Qxg5 12.Bxg5 f6 13.exf6 gxf6 14.Bd2 Nh6 15.Bxh6+ Rxh6 16.Nd6 e5 17.Nh4 Ne7 18.Nxc8 Rxc8 19.O-O-O f5 20.Bb5 a6 21.Ba4 e4 22.Kb1 f4 23.Rhf1 Kg7 24.Bd7 Rd8 25.Bh3 Rc6 26.Nf5+)
  
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dom
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Re: Armenian variation 5...Ba5 6. b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #5 - 10/02/13 at 19:38:24
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Look at "ChessTempo" website:
http://chesstempo.com/gamedb/opening/723
...and you can get some games ..and included, Romain Edouard's game :

  

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Re: Armenian variation 5...Ba5 6. b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #4 - 10/02/13 at 01:55:09
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You're right!

In fact ICCF has quite a good gameviewer, so the easiest thing is to give the links. The two games are available at

http://www.iccf-webchess.com/MakeAMove.aspx?id=435090

and

http://www.iccf-webchess.com/MakeAMove.aspx?id=434549
  
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Re: Armenian variation 5...Ba5 6. b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #3 - 10/02/13 at 00:05:25
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with a bit of searching you can find the games on http://www.iccf-webchess.com for free, so I don't think it's wrong to post the games here
  
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Re: Armenian variation 5...Ba5 6. b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #2 - 10/01/13 at 23:54:48
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There are two correspondence games from the latest ICCF games archive (server month 201309, released today, I think) in just this line (to 14 ... Bxd8):

Lil'-Schott, Chess Planet-DESC ICCF corr 2013 (1/2-1/2, 44),
Enin-Schott, Bestlogic-DESC ICCF corr 2013 (1/2-1/2, 43).

ICCF requires signing up to access their archive, so I think I need to respect that and not upload the games;apologies. But I've found it well worth signing up, and recommend it.
  
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Re: Armenian variation 5...Ba5 6. b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #1 - 09/29/13 at 11:34:36
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I noticed that Romain Edouard played 7...Kf8 as Black in the Top12 in June, and beat Svetushkin, but White played 10 Bf4. In practice, after 10 Bb2 White has answered 10...Nge7 by 11 Bd3 Ng6 12 Qg3, but maybe 12...f6 is OK, as in Malinovsky,K-Peterson,E/Pardubice 2013.
  
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C18: Armenian variation5..Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Kf8
09/29/13 at 04:35:13
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In the major threads I've found on the Armenian variation over the past several years, I've not seen 7...Kf8 mentioned as an alternative to 7...Ne7
in the line of the Armenian that goes 1. e4 e6  2. d4 d5  3. Nc3 Bb4  4. e5 c5  5. a3 Ba5  6. b4 cxd4  7. Qg4.  However I have found a game where
Lputian employed 7...Kf8 (against Firman in 2005) but I think after 8.Nb5 Bb6 9.Nf3 (9. Nxd4? Qc7; 9. Nd6?! Nc6, ...a6 and ...Bc7) Nc6 10.Bb2 his 10...f6 might have been too reckless as his opponent missed 16. 0-0-0 after the sequence 11.Nbxd4 Nxe5 12.Nxe5 fxe5 13.Nxe6+ Bxe6 14.Qxe6 Qf6 15.Qxf6+ Nxf6 instead settling for 16. c4 and the game was eventually drawn.  But instead can't Black get the queens off more safely after 10...Nge7 11.Nbxd4 h5 12.Qf4 Ng6 13.Nxc6 Nxf4 14.Nxd8 Bxd8 and isn't this safer than the game Black gets starting with 7...Ne7

« Last Edit: 10/02/13 at 19:41:28 by dom »  
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