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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4 (Read 17020 times)
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #18 - 10/07/13 at 22:18:07
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Ludde wrote on 10/07/13 at 14:14:50:
.....
3.Bf4 on the other hand feels unlikely to be a try for any real advantage (after all what is that bishop doing on f4? hitting the rock on d6?).


Nope! Its point is simple - making people cry!  Grin
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #17 - 10/07/13 at 14:14:50
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Demorter wrote on 10/04/13 at 06:48:28:
Eric,
To be honest, I just don't like 3.e4.
I'm looking at it, staring at it, and I don't know...
It appears to me that white just helped black by playing into the pin and I have to ask - why?
Then there is also the case that Kasparov played it in rapid chess so how seriously should we take it? I'm not sure.

Personally, I tend to feel more comfortable with strategic ideas so I had to look at 3.Bf4 (simply adding pressure on e5).

Re: your line, 3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5.d5!
I tend to go for development, especially so early in the game but I'm wondering how bad is 5...Ne5 6.Bb5+ (?)
If 6...c6 7.dxc6 Nxc6 and then I think black can go with g6/Bg7, possibly bring the bishop back to d7 (if attacked by h3) and then just plays chess with 0-0, Rc8, etc.

Regarding your comment on black's play, yes, I realise it's a sound opening - annoying Cheesy
I was hoping to find, at least, a strategic reason to why it's less than favourable and I still wonder if that's completely incorrect? Maybe there is a way to make black's play, well, unnatural.
But, I do have to add, I don't like (that's personal) the classical Pirc. I prefer to play f4 lines and then break with early e5 (not the Austrian).
So I suppose that's the key point for me. I'm just looking for a way to make the game more comfortable and less interchangeable.

I'd still prefer 3.c4 and 3.Bf4.
I'm not sure that black can allow: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4 3.Bf4 Bxf3(?)
Then I like 4.gxf3 and I think the most thematic will be 4...Nd7 to which it's hard to decide what white should do with so many lovely options Cheesy
I can imagine some people will prefer 5.Bh3 or 5.Rg1 but I think I'll like 5.e4(!!?).
I realise the computer doesn't like it, oh well, I was looking at: 5...e5 (thematic) 6.Be3 g6 (the only move that doesn't fully suck) 7.Qd2 (eyeing h6) 7...Bg7 and then 8.c3.
So I realise it's not as dynamic but honestly, I'd feel that the options are profound... well... in my opinion.
For instance: A, we have the centre. B, we have the half-open g-file and if black follows with 0-0 we have h4-h5 too. C, we also have either Bc4 or Bh3. D, with the chain from b2-->d4 I'd feel ok with 0-0-0.
So, ok, maybe a "different" way of looking at it because everyone likes "ambitious" play but I think that strategically, it makes sense.


Ludde,
I'm not sure why 6.Qe2 is "very" dangerous.
Frankly, I think that 4...e6 is a really silly move and I can't imagine a serious player playing it even if playing this off-beat line as a cheapo, or for whatever reason.
Also, in my DB, Nc6 is played more than e6.
But re: Qe2, I think that the simple a6 stops it and I'd probably prefer Nbd7 since Qb5 is met with Rb8 and followed by c6 and black also has some minor tactics and threatening to win pawns too with Bg6.
I'm sure white is better of course but I'm not completely sure that these are the most critical lines. Maybe, I'm just not sure yet.

I guess, with a move like Qe2 it has to be fully justified by tactics and I'm just not sure it's that called for. It seems to be a rather critical approach but have we exhausted all other normal options?


Demorter
Just as pointed out by TN it is specifics of the position that makes 6.Qe2 dangerous. The tempo gained by threatening Qb5+ makes the whole sequence of g2-g4 and h3-h4 possible. This is because after 6.g4 Bg6 7.h4? drops the pawn on e4, but with the Q on e2 white has time for these moves.
I think that the original idea behind 4..e6 is to play a delayed French defence with the bishop outside the pawn-chain. It was fairly popular in the 80s as I recall it.
So much for the theoretical side of things. If you feel uncomfortable with 3.e4 there is a good alternative in 3.c4 as pointed out in several places in the thread. 3.Bf4 on the other hand feels unlikely to be a try for any real advantage (after all what is that bishop doing on f4? hitting the rock on d6?).
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #16 - 10/06/13 at 18:38:21
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Look at the game Portisch -Larsen, Sousse (izt) 1967 in chess informant (best of the best)



study it to increase your strength - chess informant is great stuff!
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #15 - 10/06/13 at 09:41:19
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I'm not a master and I don't think I ever will be.
I don't think I have the talent so I learned over time that it's better for me to play closer positions where strategy is the key factor and where you have less to worry about.
My positional chess is OK, and I'm actually OK at tactics too but somehow whenever I try to play overly open and dynamic positions (usually via 1.e4, which I dislike altogether!) I simply play worse.

I say this because I relaise many of you are masters and/or above.

1. Nf3 d6

A) 2. d4 Bg4 3. c4

(3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Be3 d5 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 e6 8. e5 Nd7 9. Qg3, OK, White is much better here. I'm sold.)

3... Nd7 4. Nc3 e5 5. g3 Be7 6. Bg2 Ngf6 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 c6 9. d5 cxd5 10. cxd5 - I understand white is better, I never said that white is worse and/or that I don't see it. Black has a silly d-pawn, his DSB looks ridiculous and he has less space. I can see all that but I what I don't see it a clear plan for white to take the advantage. Black seems worse but ok... at least to me. Black will play 0-0, Rc8, and then maybe a5/b5 or maybe he'll try to trade off the DSB either by Bd8-b6 or by something odd like h6/Nh7/Bg5 . These are just vague ideas and I understand that but I don't see how white is going to do much about it. How does white win with his bishops pair and more space?
It seems to me that white has what people call - a good looking position that isn't winning.
But I might be mistaken.
I'll be happy if someone taught me or showed me a plan for how this is done.

B) 2. c4 Bg4 3. Qb3
This is great.
I like it!
I think that after: 3... Qc8 I would prefer 4. d4 because that prevents black from playing e5. For instance, 4. h3 Bxf3 5. Qxf3 e5 6. e3 Nc6 and maybe black is ok?
But with 3. d4 Nf6 5. h3?! Bxf3 6. Qxf3 Nc6 black still looks ok so I was considering 5. Nc3 and just develop because I'm pretty sure that 5... Bxf3 6. gxf3 just gives white a big advantage... this is MY kind of a position. I'd love to be white there!

Regarding 3. Bf4 making people weep, well, I really don't have anything to say about that because I have no idea what it means. Smiley
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #14 - 10/05/13 at 22:26:24
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by the way, I think 3.h3 is a very playable move, I know black often takes on f3 without being asked but I just love it when that happens (a correspondence game of mine went 1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. c4 Bxf3 4. exf3 c6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. g4 Na6 9. Be2 Nc7 10. g5 Nh5 11. f4 Qd7 12. O-O-O d5 13. c5 O-O-O 14. Kb1 Kb8 15. h4 1-0, my opponent resigned too soon here but it's not easy to save this), so why not provoke it?
Kaufman actually recommends something similar against the Veresov: 3...h6, and you could even draw comparisons with the Ruy Lopez
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #13 - 10/05/13 at 21:06:00
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tony37 wrote on 10/05/13 at 20:39:50:
Demorter wrote on 10/02/13 at 11:16:24:
B) 3. c4 Nd7 4. Nc3 e5 (4... c5 5. d5) 5. g3 Be7 (5... f5 6. Ng5 Qe7 7. Nd5) 6. Bg2 Ngf6 (6... f5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8.O-O e4 9. Nd4) 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 c6 and again Black looks ok to me.

white plays 9.d5, threatens to take a pawn, has more space, and the bishop pair, if that's not enough then I can't help you (one plan after 9...c5 is e4, Be3, Qd2, and pushing the h-(and g-)pawn)

I think 3.e4 and 3.c4 are about equally fine and it's more a matter of taste what to play, but 3.c4 feels more 'in the spirit' of 1.Nf3


Seconded.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #12 - 10/05/13 at 20:39:50
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Demorter wrote on 10/02/13 at 11:16:24:
B) 3. c4 Nd7 4. Nc3 e5 (4... c5 5. d5) 5. g3 Be7 (5... f5 6. Ng5 Qe7 7. Nd5) 6. Bg2 Ngf6 (6... f5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8.O-O e4 9. Nd4) 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 c6 and again Black looks ok to me.

white plays 9.d5, threatens to take a pawn, has more space, and the bishop pair, if that's not enough then I can't help you (one plan after 9...c5 is e4, Be3, Qd2, and pushing the h-(and g-)pawn)

I think 3.e4 and 3.c4 are about equally fine and it's more a matter of taste what to play, but 3.c4 feels more 'in the spirit' of 1.Nf3
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #11 - 10/05/13 at 10:56:18
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Demorter wrote on 10/04/13 at 06:48:28:
Frankly, I think that 4...e6 is a really silly move and I can't imagine a serious player playing it even if playing this off-beat line as a cheapo, or for whatever reason.
Also, in my DB, Nc6 is played more than e6.

and still this 'silly move' is the main line in this position, 4...Nc6 and 4...c6 are played much less but transpose to positions that appear more often by other move orders (by 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bg4 and 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4 respectively)
also in 'The Dark Knight system' James Schuyler chooses to avoid 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bg4 and prefers a Pirc with 4...g6
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #10 - 10/05/13 at 09:30:33
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There was a SOS line with 3.Qd3 IIRC.
Maybe you wanna check that for a surprise weapon
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #9 - 10/04/13 at 22:11:45
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I have no idea why the thread-starter is having such a headache with this. If 3.e4 doesn't suit you, then 3.c4 is another critical try. If you can't find an edge for White that you particularly like in either one, then quit playing 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4

Oh, and 3.Bf4 makes me weep.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #8 - 10/04/13 at 20:32:45
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The reason Kasparov played 3.e4 in a rapid game was because his opponent played 2...Bg4 against him in a rapid game.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #7 - 10/04/13 at 09:31:01
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I haven't carefully read your post, but 3.e4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Be3 d5 scores terribly for Black and is well met by 6.exd5 (6.h3 seems even better but one good line is enough) 6...Nxd5 7.Nxd5 Qxd5 8.Be2 followed by 0-0 and c4, when White has an improved version of the Scandinavian (Black has played ...d5 in two turns, after all). The reason behind 4...e6 isn't that it's so great for Black, but that the alternatives are even worse. Greet covers the position after 4...Nc6 very well in 'Beating Unusual Chess Defences: 1.e4', via the 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bg4 move order.

Also the point of 6.Qe2 is to prepare the g4 and h4 advances without hanging the e-pawn. Other approaches look natural but tend to give Black what he wants - he will play ...d5, and you will either get a completely equal Rubinstein French position after ...dxe4, an improved French/Caro for Black after e5 Nfd7 followed by ...c5, which leaves the c3-knight looking silly, or after exd5 cxd5 Black has a nice Exchange Caro where White's knight is misplaced on c3.

As for 3.Bf4, obviously it's a playable move but I'd be happy to face this as Black; for instance after 3...Nd7 Black might get in ...e5 with tempo. But I know a cheap trap that even a few IMs have fallen into: 3.e3 Nd7 4.Be2 e5? 5.dxe5 dxe5 6.Nxe5! Bxe2 7.Qxd7! and White wins a pawn for free. Of course if Black plays 4...Ngf6 first you have to settle for a symbolic edge - White's bad score from the position after 4...Ngf6 is mainly the result of Black being the higher-rated player in the majority of games.

On another note, if you normally follow up 1.Nf3 with c4 then you might consider 1.Nf3 d6 2.c4, with the idea of meeting 2...Bg4 with 3.Qb3!? when 3...Qc8 4.h3 Bxf3 (4...Bh5?? 5.Qb5) 5.Qxf3 favours White slightly because of his bishop pair. The disadvantage of this move order is that you allow 2...e5.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #6 - 10/04/13 at 06:48:28
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Eric,
To be honest, I just don't like 3.e4.
I'm looking at it, staring at it, and I don't know...
It appears to me that white just helped black by playing into the pin and I have to ask - why?
Then there is also the case that Kasparov played it in rapid chess so how seriously should we take it? I'm not sure.

Personally, I tend to feel more comfortable with strategic ideas so I had to look at 3.Bf4 (simply adding pressure on e5).

Re: your line, 3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5.d5!
I tend to go for development, especially so early in the game but I'm wondering how bad is 5...Ne5 6.Bb5+ (?)
If 6...c6 7.dxc6 Nxc6 and then I think black can go with g6/Bg7, possibly bring the bishop back to d7 (if attacked by h3) and then just plays chess with 0-0, Rc8, etc.

Regarding your comment on black's play, yes, I realise it's a sound opening - annoying Cheesy
I was hoping to find, at least, a strategic reason to why it's less than favourable and I still wonder if that's completely incorrect? Maybe there is a way to make black's play, well, unnatural.
But, I do have to add, I don't like (that's personal) the classical Pirc. I prefer to play f4 lines and then break with early e5 (not the Austrian).
So I suppose that's the key point for me. I'm just looking for a way to make the game more comfortable and less interchangeable.

I'd still prefer 3.c4 and 3.Bf4.
I'm not sure that black can allow: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4 3.Bf4 Bxf3(?)
Then I like 4.gxf3 and I think the most thematic will be 4...Nd7 to which it's hard to decide what white should do with so many lovely options Cheesy
I can imagine some people will prefer 5.Bh3 or 5.Rg1 but I think I'll like 5.e4(!!?).
I realise the computer doesn't like it, oh well, I was looking at: 5...e5 (thematic) 6.Be3 g6 (the only move that doesn't fully suck) 7.Qd2 (eyeing h6) 7...Bg7 and then 8.c3.
So I realise it's not as dynamic but honestly, I'd feel that the options are profound... well... in my opinion.
For instance: A, we have the centre. B, we have the half-open g-file and if black follows with 0-0 we have h4-h5 too. C, we also have either Bc4 or Bh3. D, with the chain from b2-->d4 I'd feel ok with 0-0-0.
So, ok, maybe a "different" way of looking at it because everyone likes "ambitious" play but I think that strategically, it makes sense.


Ludde,
I'm not sure why 6.Qe2 is "very" dangerous.
Frankly, I think that 4...e6 is a really silly move and I can't imagine a serious player playing it even if playing this off-beat line as a cheapo, or for whatever reason.
Also, in my DB, Nc6 is played more than e6.
But re: Qe2, I think that the simple a6 stops it and I'd probably prefer Nbd7 since Qb5 is met with Rb8 and followed by c6 and black also has some minor tactics and threatening to win pawns too with Bg6.
I'm sure white is better of course but I'm not completely sure that these are the most critical lines. Maybe, I'm just not sure yet.

I guess, with a move like Qe2 it has to be fully justified by tactics and I'm just not sure it's that called for. It seems to be a rather critical approach but have we exhausted all other normal options?
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #5 - 10/03/13 at 21:02:25
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ErictheRed wrote on 10/03/13 at 04:46:04:
Demorter wrote on 10/02/13 at 11:16:24:
Didn't know Avrukh talked about it in his books.
I have them, actually.

I looked at the lines, I'm not sure what I feel but I think that black is ok.

1. Nf3 d6 2. d4 Bg4

A) 3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Be3 d5 6. e5 Ne4 7. Bd3 Nxc3 8. bxc3 e6 9. O-O Na5 and if I'm not mistaken black is quite ok?
Has ...c5 coming up and with the bishop out side of the pawn chain I think he may have a better french, no?

B) 3. c4 Nd7 4. Nc3 e5 (4... c5 5. d5) 5. g3 Be7 (5... f5 6. Ng5 Qe7 7. Nd5) 6. Bg2 Ngf6 (6... f5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8.
O-O e4 9. Nd4) 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 c6 and again Black looks ok to me.


Welcome to the forum Demorter, and thank you for this follow-up post!  My own reply was curt because many people come here offering nothing of their own, expecting other members of the forum to do all of their work for them.  In the future, you should include these lines (or whatever you've already looked at) in your initial question.  It helps us better understand the problem you're having, but also lets us know that you've done a little bit of work on your own.

Kasparov himself played 3.e4, beating the likes of Short and Anand with it, so it's tempting to start with this move.  It's certainly the most logical and probably best: seizing the maximum amount of space and preparing to develop as rapidly as possible. 

In the line you gave, I'd consider 3.e4 Nf6 4.h3, when if Black chooses to play 4...Bh5 I suspect that the inclusion of h2-h3 and ...Bg4-h5 is to White's advantage.  For instance:



Further in your line, I'd play 3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5.d5!, as 5...Ne5? isn't really very good due to 6.Bb5+! (and even 6.Nxe5!? seems to lead to some advantage for White). 

This is a completely sound opening, however, so don't expect White to be able to refute Black's play or anything.  Also note that in the 3.e4 lines, a direct transposition to a Classical Pirc is possible.

I think that the line 3.e4 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 (agreeing with EricTheRed on the dangers of 4..Nc6 5.d5 - and seeing that 4..e6 is by far the most commonly played) 5.h3 Bh5 6.Qe2 is very dangerous for black. The cheeky Qe2 thretens to snatcha pawn with Qb5 and the additional defence of e4 makes it possible to create a big space advantage on the kingside after 6..a6/c6 7.g4 Bg6 8.h4 h5 9.g5 Nfd7 10.Bh3 with what I would consider is somewhere bordering between +/- and +=. Any locking of the centre after d4-d5 by white and e6-e5 by black will be utterly depressing for both(!) blacks bishops.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #4 - 10/03/13 at 04:46:04
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Demorter wrote on 10/02/13 at 11:16:24:
Didn't know Avrukh talked about it in his books.
I have them, actually.

I looked at the lines, I'm not sure what I feel but I think that black is ok.

1. Nf3 d6 2. d4 Bg4

A) 3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Be3 d5 6. e5 Ne4 7. Bd3 Nxc3 8. bxc3 e6 9. O-O Na5 and if I'm not mistaken black is quite ok?
Has ...c5 coming up and with the bishop out side of the pawn chain I think he may have a better french, no?

B) 3. c4 Nd7 4. Nc3 e5 (4... c5 5. d5) 5. g3 Be7 (5... f5 6. Ng5 Qe7 7. Nd5) 6. Bg2 Ngf6 (6... f5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8.
O-O e4 9. Nd4) 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 c6 and again Black looks ok to me.


Welcome to the forum Demorter, and thank you for this follow-up post!  My own reply was curt because many people come here offering nothing of their own, expecting other members of the forum to do all of their work for them.  In the future, you should include these lines (or whatever you've already looked at) in your initial question.  It helps us better understand the problem you're having, but also lets us know that you've done a little bit of work on your own.

Kasparov himself played 3.e4, beating the likes of Short and Anand with it, so it's tempting to start with this move.  It's certainly the most logical and probably best: seizing the maximum amount of space and preparing to develop as rapidly as possible. 

In the line you gave, I'd consider 3.e4 Nf6 4.h3, when if Black chooses to play 4...Bh5 I suspect that the inclusion of h2-h3 and ...Bg4-h5 is to White's advantage.  For instance:



Further in your line, I'd play 3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5.d5!, as 5...Ne5? isn't really very good due to 6.Bb5+! (and even 6.Nxe5!? seems to lead to some advantage for White). 

This is a completely sound opening, however, so don't expect White to be able to refute Black's play or anything.  Also note that in the 3.e4 lines, a direct transposition to a Classical Pirc is possible.
« Last Edit: 10/03/13 at 10:09:42 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #3 - 10/02/13 at 11:16:24
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Didn't know Avrukh talked about it in his books.
I have them, actually.

I looked at the lines, I'm not sure what I feel but I think that black is ok.

1. Nf3 d6 2. d4 Bg4

A) 3. e4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Be3 d5 6. e5 Ne4 7. Bd3 Nxc3 8. bxc3 e6 9. O-O Na5 and if I'm not mistaken black is quite ok?
Has ...c5 coming up and with the bishop out side of the pawn chain I think he may have a better french, no?

B) 3. c4 Nd7 4. Nc3 e5 (4... c5 5. d5) 5. g3 Be7 (5... f5 6. Ng5 Qe7 7. Nd5) 6. Bg2 Ngf6 (6... f5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8.
O-O e4 9. Nd4) 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 c6 and again Black looks ok to me.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #2 - 10/02/13 at 08:41:23
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Also quite effective is 3.c4, with the intention of 3...Nd7 4.Nc3 e5 5.g3! as advised by Avrukh. Against 3...Bxf3, recapture with exf3, play d5 at a good moment and be happy with two bishops and more space.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
Reply #1 - 10/02/13 at 06:01:15
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3.e4.
  
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1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Bg4
10/02/13 at 05:20:34
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What should white do here?
Thanks.
  
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