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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) IDEA (Read 33354 times)
TonyRo
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Re: IDEA
Reply #26 - 10/18/13 at 14:56:00
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I sucessfully ran my first IDeA analysis overnight - nothing major. I tested it on a position I had analyzed a large amount by myself, and it came to mostly the same conclusions.

I did try to run another one after it by entering a position in the Sandbox and sending it over to an IDeA project I had already created, but nothing happened - it generated no tasks to start with, and so nothing happened. Has anyone had this problem before?
  
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brabo
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Re: IDEA
Reply #25 - 10/18/13 at 05:39:44
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Vass wrote on 10/17/13 at 21:23:53:
Well, with the IDeA tool you can create the so-called "master tree" in which you store every game you analyse with all the variations. Next time you play the same opening line you can enter this tree and start from when it ended. If your new opponent makes a different move than your opponents made in your prevous games it turns out that this move was analysed too, so you won't start from a scratch.
Some say that such 'master trees' of the best correspondence chess players may cost a good deal of money.  Wink

Such master trees have an expiration date. I've been building such trees for more than a decade and realize that anything built more than 5 years ago has very little value anymore. I wouldn't be surprised over 5 years that we can say the same about the trees made today. Today I often remake some old tree with new engines.
  
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Stigma
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Re: IDEA
Reply #24 - 10/18/13 at 00:21:06
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Vass wrote on 10/17/13 at 21:31:04:
Stigma wrote on 10/17/13 at 21:23:25:
Just scanning this thread, I'm so glad I'm strictly an OTB player. No need to analyze day and night, pay huge electricity bills or slowly but surely help the machines solve the royal game, which, you have to admit, would take a lot of the fun out of it!

And my games are still to a large extent about the struggle at the board, in real-time, between two human beings.


Well, Stigma, I often say (on this forum, too) that these two are very different kinds of chess. OTB chess is about a fight, preparation, psychology and so on (i.e. the sport in its pure form), while the correspondence one is about finding the 'absolute truth', if there is any..  Grin ...i.e. the art with the big 'A'.

Quite right. To each their own, and I hope I didn't insult anyone! To me the game simply holds infinitely more interest when it's fallible human beings playing. It's no coincidence that chess has been cognitive psychology's favorite guinea-pig for more than a century.

The ultimate truth of Western-Arabic chess is still just the ultimate truth of a historically random set of rules that happened to be codified (for the most part) in 15th century Spain. I fear that as humans + computers approach this truth, the value and popularity of a great mindsport is diminished while nothing of comparable value is gained. In the eyes of the general public, this already started happening with Kasparov's match defeat by Deep Blue.

I guess the "sportsmen" can always salvage a few extra decades by switching to Chess960  Wink
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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TonyRo
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Re: IDEA
Reply #23 - 10/17/13 at 21:48:58
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That's chess in general for everyone, isn't it!?

Wink
  
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Vass
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Re: IDEA
Reply #22 - 10/17/13 at 21:35:56
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TonyRo wrote on 10/17/13 at 20:05:47:
I need to figure out how to use this thing.

*Goes to the Aquarium Website*


TonyRo, friend, don't hurry!
There will be so many times you would throw away this 'thing' off...cursing,...and then take it again.  Wink
Grin
  
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Vass
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Re: IDEA
Reply #21 - 10/17/13 at 21:31:04
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Stigma wrote on 10/17/13 at 21:23:25:
Just scanning this thread, I'm so glad I'm strictly an OTB player. No need to analyze day and night, pay huge electricity bills or slowly but surely help the machines solve the royal game, which, you have to admit, would take a lot of the fun out of it!

And my games are still to a large extent about the struggle at the board, in real-time, between two human beings.


Well, Stigma, I often say (on this forum, too) that these two are very different kinds of chess. OTB chess is about a fight, preparation, psychology and so on (i.e. the sport in its pure form), while the correspondence one is about finding the 'absolute truth', if there is any..  Grin ...i.e. the art with the big 'A'.
  
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Vass
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Re: IDEA
Reply #20 - 10/17/13 at 21:23:53
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Well, with the IDeA tool you can create the so-called "master tree" in which you store every game you analyse with all the variations. Next time you play the same opening line you can enter this tree and start from when it ended. If your new opponent makes a different move than your opponents made in your prevous games it turns out that this move was analysed too, so you won't start from a scratch.
Some say that such 'master trees' of the best correspondence chess players may cost a good deal of money.  Wink
  
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Stigma
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Re: IDEA
Reply #19 - 10/17/13 at 21:23:25
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Just scanning this thread, I'm so glad I'm strictly an OTB player. No need to analyze day and night, pay huge electricity bills or slowly but surely help the machines solve the royal game, which, you have to admit, would take a lot of the fun out of it!

And my games are still to a large extent about the struggle at the board, in real-time, between two human beings.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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brabo
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Re: IDEA
Reply #18 - 10/17/13 at 20:37:09
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Vass wrote on 10/17/13 at 20:02:27:
Nope, he doesn't. He simply removes the old root and creates a new root (starting from the move that his opponent did). And the IDeA starts to analyse from this new root position, but all the previously analysed lines are stored, so it just continues to dig deeper. Like there is a constant hash which is never deleted (in comparison to the infinite analysis).
And what is more, one can establish more than one root, for example: there are three (or more) lines which are promising. First they go smoothly but after 5 or 6 plys they distract in different variations. So, I put the first root after the move which my opponent made. Next I put three more roots in the three promising lines right after the undisputed (already approved and well-analysed) moves. Thus, one core/engine keeps on analysing and generating moves from the starting (root) position, while the other three ones start to generate/analyse moves from their starting points, somewehere along the three promising lines.

That is also how I work but then with the deep analysis tool I need to cut the work into pieces so fixing the tool on every branch which needs to be analyzed deeper. No need to explain that it is a very timeconsuming activity. Some players will certainly dislike that but I don't mind as I have the feeling that I stay more in control of what is ongoing.
I just checked one of my most analyzed old correspondence games (win against + 2500 player) and figured out that I generated that way around 70 pages of analysis without any verbal explanations so pure variations !!
  
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TonyRo
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Re: IDEA
Reply #17 - 10/17/13 at 20:05:47
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I need to figure out how to use this thing.

*Goes to the Aquarium Website*
  
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Vass
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Re: IDEA
Reply #16 - 10/17/13 at 20:02:27
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brabo wrote on 10/17/13 at 19:11:35:
If this guy doesn't exceed the timelimit then I don't know. How can you do that for each move if you have 20 or more games running?
Besides I really ask myself how high the electricitybill is for correspondence players using such extensive use of engines. I remember one of my friends telling me that the electricity bill went down with 50% once the stopped playing correspondence chess and in West Europe that is quite some money.

Nope, he doesn't. He simply removes the old root and creates a new root (starting from the move that his opponent did). And the IDeA starts to analyse from this new root position, but all the previously analysed lines are stored, so it just continues to dig deeper. Like there is a constant hash which is never deleted (in comparison to the infinite analysis).
And what is more, one can establish more than one root, for example: there are three (or more) lines which are promising. First they go smoothly but after 5 or 6 plys they distract in different variations. So, I put the first root after the move which my opponent made. Next I put three more roots in the three promising lines right after the undisputed (already approved and well-analysed) moves. Thus, one core/engine keeps on analysing and generating moves from the starting (root) position, while the other three ones start to generate/analyse moves from their starting points, somewehere along the three promising lines.
And yes, the electricity bill is one of the biggest problems in my country, here in eastern Europe, too.  Wink
  
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brabo
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Re: IDEA
Reply #15 - 10/17/13 at 19:20:50
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Vass wrote on 10/17/13 at 19:00:45:
To simply visualise what IDeA gives as an analysis you can browse the ChessOK Opening Explorer on this page:
http://chessok.com/?page_id=352
which uses the so-called CAP evaluations explained here:
http://chessok.com/files/bobpawlak/Articles/009_CAP.html
So, IDeA makes such trees..almost trying to solve chess.  Grin
The only problem is that there is no computing power available for this.
That's why we have to help this tool to give us only the best lines out of the perfect tree. And this is the hardest task.  Roll Eyes

As mentioned in my blogarticle, I use 100 seconds per move to get an evaluation for each move during e.g. a night running the deep analysis tool. When it is more light analysis for my OTB games then I use 1 minute per move. For gamepreparations of OTB I dare to use 10 seconds per move as there is often very little time available to prepare. So I also try to solve chess with trees and sort of cap values but don't use the idea-tool for that.
  
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Re: IDEA
Reply #14 - 10/17/13 at 19:11:35
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Vass wrote on 10/17/13 at 18:44:42:
Another method, used by one of the best correspondence chess players in the world (I won't reveal his name here):
He simply gives the root position to the IDeA with aggressive settings to generate almost every possible move. Leaves it for four days to calculate. It results in the widest possible tree several moves further starting from the root position (of course, the number depends on the computer power). This is a method I call a 'brute force'. Then he shapes the tree, so IDeA starts analysing only the promising lines, leaving it for 2-3 days. And at last, he enters moves by hand all along the (resulted) lines depending on his understanding of chess, giving these to IDeA to prolong them..
Not a promising line can be missed like that, believe me!  Roll Eyes

If this guy doesn't exceed the timelimit then I don't know. How can you do that for each move if you have 20 or more games running?
Besides I really ask myself how high the electricitybill is for correspondence players using such extensive use of engines. I remember one of my friends telling me that the electricity bill went down with 50% once he stopped playing correspondence chess and in West Europe that is quite some money.
  
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brabo
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Re: IDEA
Reply #13 - 10/17/13 at 19:05:29
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The deep analysis tool gives you also a complete tree of variations ordered via evaluation which in most cases builds a different mainline then what you would get with infinite analysis in the same timeframe. So there is no difference with the idea-tool on that aspect.

There is however a big advantage of the idea-tool compared with the deep analysis tool.
The idea-tool has the logarithms to define how many branches are interesting to be calculated and can endlessly define new interesting branches to be calculated.
The deep analysis tool is fixed so you need in advance to define where and how many branches will be interesting to analyze. You also need to guess in advance how much time will be spent to create such tree.

In the assumption that you let both tools run automatically, I am pretty sure that you will generate more garbage branches with the deep analysis tool than the idea-tool (which doesn't mean there will be no garbage braches in the idea-tool as also with that tool corrections do happen).

Now if you use both tools semi-automatically so regularly checking what is ongoing (e.g. every half hour) then I believe there will be little to no difference in output between both tools in the assumption you make corrections when you notice garbage branches are being created.
  
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Vass
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Re: IDEA
Reply #12 - 10/17/13 at 19:00:45
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To simply visualise what IDeA gives as an analysis you can browse the ChessOK Opening Explorer on this page:
http://chessok.com/?page_id=352
which uses the so-called CAP evaluations explained here:
http://chessok.com/files/bobpawlak/Articles/009_CAP.html
So, IDeA makes such trees..almost trying to solve chess.  Grin
The only problem is that there is no computing power available for this.
That's why we have to help this tool to give us only the best lines out of the perfect tree. And this is the hardest task.  Roll Eyes
  
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