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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit (Read 10499 times)
Gambit
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #13 - 04/28/14 at 02:05:48
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You mentioned Nguyen-Smith, email 1997. This proves that there are almost no games with this line. As they say, the exception proves the rule.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #12 - 02/25/14 at 21:55:13
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The only practical example that I can find in the line starting with 8.Nh4 is Nguyen-Smith, email 1997, which went 8...h6 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.Nxf5 Qxf5 11.Qd3? Qxd3 12.Bxd3 Nd7, with a clear advantage for Black, but 11.Rf1 is an obvious improvement, whereupon I think White easily has enough compensation for the pawn as Black has nothing developed other than the queen.
  
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Gambit
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #11 - 02/25/14 at 07:40:37
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I play correspondence chess and even there I never see all this analyses. Like I said back in December 2013, this seems to be discussing theory without any practice.
Now, I played some correspondence games where stuff was analysed through move 14, but this is different.

Computers aside, where are practical tests?
  
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RdC
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #10 - 02/18/14 at 17:34:05
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Gambit wrote on 12/23/13 at 20:14:30:
My question is, are there any games with this line? Or is this all discussing theory without any games from practice?


It doesn't seem to have been played in any tournaments where the games have been published on the web, but the BDG is a relatively infrequent choice in practice. Blitz and turn based chess may well be different. If you trust the evaluations of engines, their opinion of the BDG is generally that white sacrifices a pawn for equality at best, admittedly with the additional possibilities of an unbalanced position. If you can even be bothered to learn or study an opening to move 23, why not be practical and know some winning ideas in mainstream openings?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #9 - 02/17/14 at 13:29:46
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PANFR wrote on 11/11/13 at 08:45:20:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4!? Bg6 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Qd3 Be7 11.0-0-0 Nbd7 12.h4 a5 13.Bb3 Nb6 14.a4 Nbd5 15.Kb1 Qd7 is Avrukh's suggested improvement over 15...Qc7 16.Rhf1 etc, as analysed by Buecker. The point is that e6 is protected, and 16.Rhf1 is met by Nxc3+ 17.Qxc3 Ne4 18.Qe3 f5, and white has little to show for his pawn. This looks quite right, e.g. 19.Bxe7 Qxe7 20.g3 0-0-0 21.c3 e5 22.g4 ed4 23.cd4 Rhf8 (23...Rxh4 should also be OK), which looks just bad for white.

This 15...Qd7 ("!" Avrukh) was published in Avrukh's Beating 1.d4 Sidelines (2012), p. 35. His analysis continues:

Quote:
16.Rhf1 [...] Nxc3+ 17.Qxc3 Ne4 18.Qe3 f5!. With the e6-pawn protected, Black stands better.

What Avrukh overlooks is 18.Qe1! Nxg5 19.hxg5 Bxg5 20.d5! cxd5 21.Rxd5 Qe7 22.Rb5.

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White has full compensation for the two sacrificed pawns.

That said, in general I like Boris Avrukh's careful coverage of the BDG very much. There was a time, only a few years ago, when the BDG was ridiculed by many authors. Now we have Avrukh saying the following (p. 20):

Quote:
[The BDG] may not be fully correct, but when working on this chapter I was surprised at just how potent White's initiative could become, even against some of Black's most respected defensive set-ups. Although I cannot claim to have "refuted" the gambit entirely, I am confident that my recommended system will avoid the biggest dangers while preserving Black's extra pawn and giving the second player good chances to capitalize on his advantage.
  
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Gambit
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #8 - 12/23/13 at 20:14:30
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My question is, are there any games with this line? Or is this all discussing theory without any games from practice?
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #7 - 12/14/13 at 01:36:23
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I am still yet to find anything convincing against 8.Qe2 Bb4, but in Avrukh's line with 15...Qd7, I think White is better off trying 16.Ne2, side-stepping the exchange on c3 and planning Nf4, e.g. 16...0-0-0 17.Qf3 Qc7 18.Nf4 Qb6 19.Nxd5 exd5 20.c4, with some hacking chances on the queenside (though Black is not short of alternatives).
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #6 - 12/09/13 at 19:52:39
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SWJediknight wrote on 11/09/13 at 12:25:55:
In my analysis of the BDG from a couple of years ago I considered 7...Nbd7 8.Qe2 e6, concluding that White had decent chances after 9.0-0-0 Be7 10.Rhf1 (10.Bxf6 Bxf6 11.d5 has been analysed a fair bit at Guido de Bouver's Blackmar-Diemer Gambit blog), but did not examine the eminently sensible 8...Nb6, so I'm going to need to take a closer look at this when next updating my analysis (probably in the next month or two). 


When I looked at this line, I also though White solid chances after ...Be7, but not an early ...Bb4. Let me see if I can find the thread...

PS - Yep, 8.Qe2 Bb4! was my issue:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1241639697/0#0
  
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PANFR
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #5 - 12/09/13 at 17:35:11
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kevinfat wrote on 11/17/13 at 02:22:36:
Do you have a link to Avrukh's full analysis?



It's some 23 pages in his latest Quality Chess book (GM repertoire vol.11), and I do not think it's wise to make it public.
  
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fling
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #4 - 11/17/13 at 06:13:14
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kevinfat
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #3 - 11/17/13 at 02:22:36
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PANFR wrote on 11/11/13 at 08:45:20:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4!? Bg6 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Qd3 Be7 11.0-0-0 Nbd7 12.h4 a5 13.Bb3 Nb6 14.a4 Nbd5 15.Kb1 Qd7 is Avrukh's suggested improvement over 15...Qc7 16.Rhf1 etc, as analysed by Buecker. The point is that e6 is protected, and 16.Rhf1 is met by Nxc3+ 17.Qxc3 Ne4 18.Qe3 f5, and white has little to show for his pawn. This looks quite right, e.g. 19.Bxe7 Qxe7 20.g3 0-0-0 21.c3 e5 22.g4 ed4 23.cd4 Rhf8 (23...Rxh4 should also be OK), which looks just bad for white.


Do you have a link to Avrukh's full analysis?
  
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PANFR
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #2 - 11/11/13 at 08:45:20
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4!? Bg6 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Qd3 Be7 11.0-0-0 Nbd7 12.h4 a5 13.Bb3 Nb6 14.a4 Nbd5 15.Kb1 Qd7 is Avrukh's suggested improvement over 15...Qc7 16.Rhf1 etc, as analysed by Buecker. The point is that e6 is protected, and 16.Rhf1 is met by Nxc3+ 17.Qxc3 Ne4 18.Qe3 f5, and white has little to show for his pawn. This looks quite right, e.g. 19.Bxe7 Qxe7 20.g3 0-0-0 21.c3 e5 22.g4 ed4 23.cd4 Rhf8 (23...Rxh4 should also be OK), which looks just bad for white.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
Reply #1 - 11/09/13 at 12:25:55
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In my analysis of the BDG from a couple of years ago I considered 7...Nbd7 8.Qe2 e6, concluding that White had decent chances after 9.0-0-0 Be7 10.Rhf1 (10.Bxf6 Bxf6 11.d5 has been analysed a fair bit at Guido de Bouver's Blackmar-Diemer Gambit blog), but did not examine the eminently sensible 8...Nb6, so I'm going to need to take a closer look at this when next updating my analysis (probably in the next month or two).
  
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kevinfat
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Gutman line against Blackmar-Diemer gambit
11/09/13 at 10:41:37
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I just read the chesscafe article on Gutman's idea of 7.Bg5, 8.Nh4, and 10.Qd3 followed by castling queenside
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss42.pdf

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4!? Bg6 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Qd3
an example continuation given being
10.Be7 11.0-0-0 Nbd7 12.h4 a5 13.Bb3 Nb6 14.a4
and black has problems making use of the extra pawn to make progress as the black king and the f7 pawn can become problems.

But what happens if black avoids 8.Nh4 and the subsequent doubling of pawns by playing 7..Nbd7 instead of 7..e6
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 Nbd7
(a) 8.Nh4 Bg4
(b) 8.Qe2 Nb6 avoiding (8..e6 9.d5 (9.0-0-0 Be7 10.Bxf6 Bxf6 (10..Nxf6 11.d5) 11.d5)) and if 9.Nh4 then 9..Bg4
Is there any analysis on these two positions?
« Last Edit: 11/09/13 at 12:57:54 by kevinfat »  
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