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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black! (Read 21433 times)
LostTactic
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #12 - 11/19/13 at 02:33:23
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I'm a big fan of the Berlin. It's particularly cool that the top 3 (Carlsen, Aronian and Kramnik (I rate Kramnik ahead of Aronian regardless of rating)) employ it regularly, so there's plenty of WCh calibre games to learn from.
  
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #11 - 11/18/13 at 16:37:49
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I am familiar with the cozio Nc3 g6 problematic line.

I had hoped the aronian variation could have been an alternative in case of 4.Nc3. but yes 3..Nge7 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4! must be the solution to my proposed move order
  
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #10 - 11/18/13 at 09:47:28
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Viking wrote on 11/17/13 at 21:03:23:
If you intend to play 4..Nge7, why not play 3..Nge7? (unless you like to face the exchange of course). Are there any reason not to play 3..Nge7 followed by 4..a6 if you want to play the aronian variation

After 3...Nge7
"4.Nc3 is very unpleasant for Black ... and the main reason why I have at some stage quit playing the Cozio with Black."
Ivan Sokolov in  Ruy Lopez Revisited

i.e. 4...g6 5.d4! exd4 6.Nd5! is not much fun for Black
or 4...d6 5.d4 Bd7 and then 6.Bc4, 6.dxe5 and 6.d5 all lead to advantage to White according to Sokolov
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #9 - 11/18/13 at 05:43:34
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TN wrote on 11/17/13 at 13:40:47:
BobbyDigital80 wrote on 11/17/13 at 09:47:44:
There are several lines against the Ruy Lopez that I like to play, but I can't decide on one! The lines I'm interested in are the Berlin, Breyer, Archangel, and Graf. Does anyone else here play any of these lines? Which one do you like better and why?


It doesn't particularly matter, since in many of your games you won't get to play your special system: your opponents will deviate first, such as with an early d3. However I'd suggest that you just pick one and start playing it. You'll then remember and understand the theory a lot better after experiencing the line for yourself first. All of the systems you mentioned can bring you excellent results if you specialise in the typical middlegames.

The Breyer has the advantage of being very solid yet flexible enough that you can play a different sub-variation easily to avoid possible preparation. The Graf is unfashionable meaning your opponents are less likely to know how to meet it, but you absolutely have to know what you're doing or you risk getting crushed. The Archangel has the plus of being the most active, and gives you an easy system against the d3 Lopez, but the theory is developing quite quickly, and it's not so easy to win against a 7.Nxe5 player bent on drawing the game. Finally the Berlin is perhaps the most solid and occult of the four, but you'll probably need to have quite a few painful losses before you really understand it. But when you do, it's a weapon that can defeat even a reigning World Champion. Plus it is very easy to expand your repertoire within the Berlin.

If I had to pick one to recommend I'd suggest the Archangel, because it is the most active line.


Since you mentioned 7.Nxe5 against the Archangel, I assume you meant the neo-Archangel line defined by 6...Bc5. I was talking about the pure Archangel with 6...Bb7. The only thing that annoys me about it is 7.d3 which kind of makes the bishop on b7 look misplaced.
  
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #8 - 11/17/13 at 22:56:00
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TN wrote on 11/17/13 at 13:40:47:
... the Berlin is perhaps the most solid and occult of the four, but you'll probably need to have quite a few painful losses before you really understand it.


Occult?!   Cheesy


I agree with the painful losses thing.  I've had a couple of awful defeats with The Wall.  Which is not to say, I actually understand it now.  On the upside, my opponents don't either.  I don't think I've ever left the opening worse - limited sample size admittedly - and I've quite often got a (small) advantage out of the opening.

  

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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #7 - 11/17/13 at 22:28:46
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I think there is a nuance  where  white can go Bc4 instead.

Ben
  

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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #6 - 11/17/13 at 21:03:23
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If you intend to play 4..Nge7, why not play 3..Nge7? (unless you like to face the exchange of course). Are there any reason not to play 3..Nge7 followed by 4..a6 if you want to play the aronian variation
  
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #5 - 11/17/13 at 19:53:38
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A bit off topic, maybe. But if you like Benoni structures with black (as I do) then I will suggest the Aronian-Variation. It goes: 3...a6 4.Ba4-Nge7!?.

A good place to start is the chapter of Kosten in DW The Ruy Lopez. As a bonus you will not have to respond to the modern 4...Nf6 5.d3!?

Otherwise the Berlin seems like a good solution. One can spesialize to a big degree there I guess.

Archangel is also fun, but only if white play along, maybe?

Anyway. The move 4...Nge7 seems a bit underrated and also cut off a hole lot of theory. As far as I know its also pretty playable. In fact, Kosten says that it had a positive score at the time of realesing the chapter. Its not that classical though, if that`s what you want...

Ben

  

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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #4 - 11/17/13 at 18:38:45
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My own preference would be Marshall, Archangel, or Breyer. The Berlin I know is fascinating but instead of the main-line White has the Re1 and Nxe5 line, where he plays it safe. Of course if you like it go for it!!
  
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #3 - 11/17/13 at 17:10:55
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All respectable Smiley So play them all! Best to have multiple lines nowadays.
  
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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #2 - 11/17/13 at 13:40:47
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 11/17/13 at 09:47:44:
There are several lines against the Ruy Lopez that I like to play, but I can't decide on one! The lines I'm interested in are the Berlin, Breyer, Archangel, and Graf. Does anyone else here play any of these lines? Which one do you like better and why?


It doesn't particularly matter, since in many of your games you won't get to play your special system: your opponents will deviate first, such as with an early d3. However I'd suggest that you just pick one and start playing it. You'll then remember and understand the theory a lot better after experiencing the line for yourself first. All of the systems you mentioned can bring you excellent results if you specialise in the typical middlegames.

The Breyer has the advantage of being very solid yet flexible enough that you can play a different sub-variation easily to avoid possible preparation. The Graf is unfashionable meaning your opponents are less likely to know how to meet it, but you absolutely have to know what you're doing or you risk getting crushed. The Archangel has the plus of being the most active, and gives you an easy system against the d3 Lopez, but the theory is developing quite quickly, and it's not so easy to win against a 7.Nxe5 player bent on drawing the game. Finally the Berlin is perhaps the most solid and occult of the four, but you'll probably need to have quite a few painful losses before you really understand it. But when you do, it's a weapon that can defeat even a reigning World Champion. Plus it is very easy to expand your repertoire within the Berlin.

If I had to pick one to recommend I'd suggest the Archangel, because it is the most active line.
  

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Re: Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
Reply #1 - 11/17/13 at 11:20:15
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I began adding 1. ...e5 to my repertoire recently, however nobody has as yet allowed me to play a mainline Lopez. d3 therapy for them  Wink

My first choice of Lopez defence was the Breyer, not just because of its sound reputation, but because the middlegames can look like classical Pirc positions which I like.

However I looked at a few others:

Graf didn't grab me, nor the Archangel.

Liked the Berlin classical. Something about playing in such a get the bits out styles appealed. Plan was to then add in the mainline Berlin, giving me two options, get enough from Kaufmann's book to get playing, and deeper study with Cox's book.

Liked the Chigorin. OK, black is submitting to Spanish torture, but it's like playing chess History. Liked the way Marin presented it in that way.

Looked at the Marshall too. Seems Black has the fun with the security of good theoretical reputation. I reckon once you've got a few of those in Megabase, all your opponents will go d3 or some kind of anti-Marshall at you  Wink

And finally, I also looked that the Open defence, which had some appeal too.



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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BobbyDigital80
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Can't Decide Which Line To Play As Black!
11/17/13 at 09:47:44
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There are several lines against the Ruy Lopez that I like to play, but I can't decide on one! The lines I'm interested in are the Berlin, Breyer, Archangel, and Graf. Does anyone else here play any of these lines? Which one do you like better and why?
  
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