Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play (Read 9944 times)
OrangeCounty
Full Member
***
Offline


You played that like it
was a good move!

Posts: 171
Joined: 05/26/10
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #12 - 04/09/14 at 19:39:41
Post Tools
OrangeCounty wrote on 01/25/14 at 00:31:34:
But the former is always a bit dull.


I played a very exciting game in this line recently.  I take this back.  My opponent allowed me to get h4+Nf5+Rh8 going, and suddenly White was in a lot of trouble.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OrangeCounty
Full Member
***
Offline


You played that like it
was a good move!

Posts: 171
Joined: 05/26/10
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #11 - 01/25/14 at 00:31:34
Post Tools
This is a problem.  White's position in this "ultimate main line" of the Taimanov is, fairly simply, good.  Black isn't in trouble, but even with good play by Black White should not be in much danger of losing.  There are always just enough tactics with the two Bishops to keep Black from executing any really active plan.

For what it's worth, I play into the line anyway.

I think 8...b5 (or 7...b5) is probably fine, as are the ...d6 approaches (of which the best is possibly 8...Be7 and only then ...d6 when necessary).  But the former is always a bit dull (If I defend my d7 pawn, which is easy, I draw!), and the latter requires that you play the Be2 Scheveningen, which is both incredibly theoretical and in no way safe for Black (or White, for that matter, but you know what I mean).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4655
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #10 - 12/05/13 at 18:12:20
Post Tools
lnn2 wrote on 12/05/13 at 02:38:41:
Thanks Kylemeister - yes that line is what I am thinking of. I guess the point is that ...Na5 is possible with the 5... a6 move order because after Nxa5 Qxa5 Blacks queen goes to a5 in one move rather than stopping on c7 first. I am very interested in that "Secrets from Russia" book. Can't seem to find reviews though- is that book still worth getting?


Err, maybe not especially.  For the most part, it's rather like a large NIC Yearbook, with about 70 articles of that sort (averaging 5-6 pages each).  There's 60+ pages of other stuff, with half of it on endings -- for instance, an article called "Deceptive Simplicity," about various ways in which GMs have screwed up (even in published analysis) endings of R+P vs. R.  Clearly future editions were planned, but none ever came out as far as I know.

By the way, I was surprised at something in NIC magazine some months ago apparently indicating some renewed interest in the version with ...0-0 and f4 added (when meeting ...Na5 with e5 has generally been considered advantageous for White).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2502
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #9 - 12/05/13 at 06:47:21
Post Tools
lnn2 wrote on 12/05/13 at 02:50:29:
gewgaw wrote on 12/04/13 at 15:29:31:
So I thought about to play 4. ...Qc7: it's surprising, that there are nearly no sources to this line except of an old book by Burgess (year +-2000).


Thanks Gewgaw - interesting this 4... Qc7, probably the idea is to play a Kan 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qc7 5. Be2 a6. But I wonder if there must be some drawback to this move order .. perhaps involving Nb5.


I'm confused about Gewgaw's comment; I had assumed he meant 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qc7, a line which I have one fond memory of: I played a really nice game and beat a FM after 5. c4  Nf6 6. Nc3 Nxe4 7. Nxe4 Qe5, though of course it had nothing to do with the opening.

For that game I altered my usual 2...e6 move order because I didn't want to face 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4, which my opponent had played against me previously.  I don't understand Gewgaw's comment though, as I don't think Black has any particularly great deviations if White develops in classical fashion with 5.Nc3, 6.Be2, 7.0-0, etc. 

Regarding the Kan move order, in my mind one of the big "problems" (at least in a philosophical sense) is what to do after 4...a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be2.  Again you have to choose between the 8...Bb4 line, 8...Be7 line, or one of the 7...b5 or 8...b5 lines, all mentioned above.  The only uniquely "Kan" way of playing that I'm aware of is the immediate 6...b5 with the idea of NOT playing ...Nc6 any time soon, but I've never entirely trusted those lines and always transposed to a Taimanov when my Kan games have gone this way.  Of course Black can play 5...b5 instead of 5...Qc7 there, but after 6.Bd3 Qb6 7.Nf3! I've never been very comfortable with the Black pieces.

It's all a bit mess, but I refrained from saying "Paulsen" anywhere above to minimize the confusion Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1503
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #8 - 12/05/13 at 02:50:29
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 12/04/13 at 15:29:31:
So I thought about to play 4. ...Qc7: it's surprising, that there are nearly no sources to this line except of an old book by Burgess (year +-2000).


Thanks Gewgaw - interesting this 4... Qc7, probably the idea is to play a Kan 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qc7 5. Be2 a6. But I wonder if there must be some drawback to this move order .. perhaps involving Nb5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1503
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #7 - 12/05/13 at 02:38:41
Post Tools
Thanks Kylemeister - yes that line is what I am thinking of. I guess the point is that ...Na5 is possible with the 5... a6 move order because after Nxa5 Qxa5 Blacks queen goes to a5 in one move rather than stopping on c7 first. I am very interested in that "Secrets from Russia" book. Can't seem to find reviews though- is that book still worth getting?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 680
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #6 - 12/04/13 at 19:27:45
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 12/04/13 at 16:59:21:
gewgaw wrote on 12/04/13 at 15:29:31:
...over 2000 I play 8. ...Be7 and rely on Ftacnik's GM 6 sicilian najdorf, but this means lots of work.



Really, his book on the Najdorf covers what I think of as a Classical Scheveningen?  I had no idea.  Is it just a brief mention or does he actually make it his main recommendation via some move order?

GM 6; about 40 pages; very dense; honestly I only read it through, to learn the typical plans and piece play; simply too much stuff for a mortal.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2502
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #5 - 12/04/13 at 16:59:21
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 12/04/13 at 15:29:31:
...over 2000 I play 8. ...Be7 and rely on Ftacnik's GM 6 sicilian najdorf, but this means lots of work.



Really, his book on the Najdorf covers what I think of as a Classical Scheveningen?  I had no idea.  Is it just a brief mention or does he actually make it his main recommendation via some move order?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4655
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #4 - 12/04/13 at 15:44:11
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 12/04/13 at 09:39:57:
If white goes a4/Nb3 early on then the only question is whether you've got stuff like a fast e5. Maybe not, so I have a feeling that you'll likely end up in a really main line Scheveningen.


Maybe you're thinking of stuff with ...a5 like Spassky played against Karpov.

A version which involves meeting Nb3 with ...Na5 is (of course there are various possible orders; this is one used in ECO) 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e6 6. Be2 a6 7. 0-0 Nc6 8. Be3 Bd7 9. a4 Be7 10. Nb3 Na5.  That by the way was the subject of an article in the book "Secrets from Russia" (edited by Karpov) twenty years ago.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 680
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #3 - 12/04/13 at 15:29:31
Post Tools
lnn2 wrote on 12/03/13 at 15:48:15:
After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 Qc7 7. 0-0 Nf6 8. Be3 Bb4 9. Na4 Be7 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Nb6 Rb8 12. Nxc8 Qxc8, Black is maybe theoretically ok but White has two bishops and more space. So what are the other playable options for a Taimanov player?

(i) 8... Be7 transposing to a Scheveningen: a good theoretical choice although not the most practically ideal as a Be2 specialist would be familiar with these lines.

(ii) 7.... b5!? 8. Nxc6 dxc6 is supposed to be good for White but there are a number of games by Polgar and Movsesian who seem happy to accept this structure.

(iii) With the 5... a6 move order, Black can try quick queenside development plans with 6. Be2 d6 7. Be3 Bd7 8. f4 b5 which has been played by Grachev, but are there any independent lines after 8. a4? I have been trying various lines with a quick Nxd4/Bc6, or if White goes Nb3 preventing the trade then Na5, but not sure if there are many games like this and I suspect this would transpose to a type of scheveningen at some point?

Opinions welcome please!


Black's prob in the Be2 + Na4 line: nearly no winning chances, check the database: a few wins by white, many draws, that's it. So it depends on my opponent: under 2000 I take the "risk" to play 8. ...Bb4, because he probably won't play 9.Na4, but 9.f3, over 2000 I play 8. ...Be7 and rely on Ftacnik's GM 6 sicilian najdorf, but this means lots of work.

So I thought about to play 4. ...Qc7: it's surprising, that there are nearly no sources to this line except of an old book by Burgess (year +-2000).



  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1986
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #2 - 12/04/13 at 09:39:57
Post Tools
Haven't the early b5 ideas always been labelled as playable but a tiny bit solid/dull?

The early d6 idea is interesting. I'm only really familar with the ideas of the e6/Nc6/d6 (delaying a6) move order. That gives you quite a few independent lines vs Be2 set ups, and iirc some fast Nxd4 ^ e5 ideas vs Be2/Be3.

Some of those do indeed involve Nxd4 and Bc6. If you look for that sort of thing in a database via the Schevy move order you'll find some - mostly without black playing an early a6.
(Prichett did a good starting out book about this for Everyman.).

What the delay to Nf6 does to the details would need checking.

If white goes a4/Nb3 early on then the only question is whether you've got stuff like a fast e5. Maybe not, so I have a feeling that you'll likely end up in a really main line Scheveningen.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2502
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
Reply #1 - 12/03/13 at 17:58:03
Post Tools
I think that 7...b5 is probably better than its reputation but don't have any real theory or innovative ideas to show you.  Also there is 8...b5!?, waiting for the Bishop to commit to e3.  I'm curious about these moves but don't have any ideas to contribute at the moment.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1503
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Be2 Taimanov: Alternative ways to play
12/03/13 at 15:48:15
Post Tools
After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 Qc7 7. 0-0 Nf6 8. Be3 Bb4 9. Na4 Be7 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Nb6 Rb8 12. Nxc8 Qxc8, Black is maybe theoretically ok but White has two bishops and more space. So what are the other playable options for a Taimanov player?

(i) 8... Be7 transposing to a Scheveningen: a good theoretical choice although not the most practically ideal as a Be2 specialist would be familiar with these lines.

(ii) 7.... b5!? 8. Nxc6 dxc6 is supposed to be good for White but there are a number of games by Polgar and Movsesian who seem happy to accept this structure.

(iii) With the 5... a6 move order, Black can try quick queenside development plans with 6. Be2 d6 7. Be3 Bd7 8. f4 b5 which has been played by Grachev, but are there any independent lines after 8. a4? I have been trying various lines with a quick Nxd4/Bc6, or if White goes Nb3 preventing the trade then Na5, but not sure if there are many games like this and I suspect this would transpose to a type of scheveningen at some point?

Opinions welcome please!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo