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Normal Topic C25: Steinitz Gambit (Read 4538 times)
mattchess
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Re: C25: Steinitz Gambit
Reply #4 - 12/04/13 at 21:12:21
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tony37 wrote on 12/04/13 at 19:21:40:
I think a good line against the Steinitz gambit is 4...Qh4+ 5.Ke2 b6

.....

that topic ended with the line 6.Qd2 Ba6+ 7.Kd1 Bxf1 8.Nf3 Qh5 9.Rxf1 g5 10.a4 Bg7 11.Nd5 and now the weird-looking 11...Rc8 may be best, black wants to play Nge7 and castle and I don't see a real attacking plan for white (but I might be missing something)


Thanks - it does look like 5...b6 is a critical line.  I think move 10 is the key position.  10. Nd5 would be the more common continuation I think - I had not seen a4 played there before.  Stockfish likes h4 and Qd3 also.  Black is probably still a bit better after Nd5 but the few example games in the database are primarily wins for white.  The position after 9...g5 looks like a good one to analyze deeply as this does seem like a critical line.
  
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Re: C25: Steinitz Gambit
Reply #3 - 12/04/13 at 20:00:18
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Fllg wrote on 12/04/13 at 19:12:30:
I´m not aware of any recent articles or books about the Steinitz but I remember Jan Gustafsson gave on his Chessbase DVD about the Open Games for Black 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Qh4+ 4.Ke2 Ne7 5.Nf3 Qh5 6.Kf2 g5 7.d4 d6 8.Be2 Bg7 as good for Black and I find it hard to argue with that.


What would the transposition look like after 5 Ke2?  This is what I think it would need to be...

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 exf4 4. d4 Qh4+ 5. Ke2 Qh5+  6. Nf3 g5 7. Kf2 and then perhaps Bg7 but I am not sure when Ne7 fits in so I am having trouble getting to the same position from the Steinitz Gambit.  But one thing I do note is that 7. Kf2 looks like it would be a mistake and that 7. Nd5 may be better here?  There are 17 examples with 7. Nd5 in my database with 56% wins for white.  I want to look at this more closely with an engine but want to be sure I am looking at the right line.
  
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Re: C25: Steinitz Gambit
Reply #2 - 12/04/13 at 19:21:40
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I think a good line against the Steinitz gambit is 4...Qh4+ 5.Ke2 b6
this has been discussed in a previous topic: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1208413606/all

that topic ended with the line 6.Qd2 Ba6+ 7.Kd1 Bxf1 8.Nf3 Qh5 9.Rxf1 g5 10.a4 Bg7 11.Nd5 and now the weird-looking 11...Rc8 may be best, black wants to play Nge7 and castle and I don't see a real attacking plan for white (but I might be missing something)
  
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Fllg
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Re: C25: Steinitz Gambit
Reply #1 - 12/04/13 at 19:12:30
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I´m not aware of any recent articles or books about the Steinitz but I remember Jan Gustafsson gave on his Chessbase DVD about the Open Games for Black 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Qh4+ 4.Ke2 Ne7 5.Nf3 Qh5 6.Kf2 g5 7.d4 d6 8.Be2 Bg7 as good for Black and I find it hard to argue with that.
  
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C25: Steinitz Gambit
12/04/13 at 18:08:38
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I have been enjoying going over Steinitz Gambit games

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 exf4 4. d4

and while I realize it is not easy for white to play, so far the lines that claim to be refutations don't really seem to refute it.  So I am posting here in the hopes that members will share lines that are thought to be refutations so I can study them.

As an example, a contemporary article in American Chess Magazine claimed a refutation stating "two players of the Metropolitan Club....Robert Raubitscheck and Dr. Oscar P. Honneggar, consulting against Steinitz, utterly disposed of Steinitz's main play, and compelled him to admit that henceforth the gambit is unplayable."

But I question the accuracy of that.

....4. d4 Qh4+ 5. Ke2 e5 6. exd Bg4+ 7. Nf3 OOO 8. dxc6 Bc5 9. cxb7+ Kb8 10. Nb5 Nf6 11. Kd3? 

I think this is the critical move.  Steinitz had won with this previously against Zukertort and just played it again.  However, allowing stockfish to get to sufficient depth it shows c3 as good for white here (over a pawn) whereas Kd3 is equal to better for black.  In my database there are presently more games with c3 that seem to lead to white doing just fine.  So I think the "bust" published back then is clearly not a refutation (and the correct play is already known).  The supposed refutation went on...

11...Qh5 12. Kc3 a6 13. Kb3 axb5 14. c3 Rxd4 15. cxd4 Qd5+ 16 Kc2 Bf5+ 17. Kd2 Bb4+ 18. Ke2 Ng4 Steinitz Resigned - but I think it is clear at move 11 he had better.

Another more recent example.  Kingcrusher posts this video suggesting the Steinitz Gambit is busted:

I can't post this link yet w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd-IhSTix1Q

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 exf4 4. d4 Qh4+ 5. Ke2 d5 6. Nxd5??

and goes on to show how after Nxd5 white is lost.  But Nxd5 is a mistake.  Instead exd5 is the usual continuation and white is fine after that.  So I don't think there is a bust here either.

Anyone know of any books or articles that go into the Steinitz Gambit in depth?
  
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