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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen (Read 30694 times)
TonyRo
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #19 - 12/13/13 at 01:11:19
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So I splurged on the Nielsen DVDs, mostly because I really respect him as a chess player and trusted that he'd do good work on them.

If anyone is curious, he recommends the exchange sac line against 9.Bc4/12.Kb1, and the ending with 9.O-O-O d5, 15...Rd8.

Looking at the position for an hour or so, what's wrong with 15...Rb8? Black has gotten reasonable positions in all of the games, and I didn't find anything hugely scary? Anyone who's been following this line closely? 16.Nc5 perhaps?
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #18 - 12/12/13 at 21:51:04
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Papageno wrote on 12/12/13 at 21:07:27:
gewgaw wrote on 12/11/13 at 11:21:11:
At the latest after the game Karjakin - van Wely, 2013, I consider the dragon as a dubious opening.

As to this game, I noticed that some big corr guys (Haugen, Ham, Voll) recently deviated with 17...Nf4, a move that went unnoticed in Chris Ward's ChessPublishing annotations to this game.

They drew their games but this does not necessarily mean that Black has an easy game OTB.



1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5
11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qc7 15. Bc4 Rd8 (15... Rb8!?) 16. Nc5 I like this move very much, it restricts Black's idea to get rid of Bc8 with Nf4 + Be6) Bf5 17. Bb3 Nf4 !? (17... h5) 18. Qf2 Rxd1+ 19.
Rxd1 Rd8 20. Rxd8+ Qxd8 21. g4 Bc8 and here is a good moment to ask Magnus for a small hint, how to play this ending
22. Qd2 (22. h4 Qc7 23. h5 (23. a4) (23. Bc4
)) 22... Qc7 (22... Qxd2+?) White can play on without any risk, maybe Black can hold, but he has clear weaknesses.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Papageno
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #17 - 12/12/13 at 21:07:27
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gewgaw wrote on 12/11/13 at 11:21:11:
At the latest after the game Karjakin - van Wely, 2013, I consider the dragon as a dubious opening.

As to this game, I noticed that some big corr guys (Haugen, Ham, Voll) recently deviated with 17...Nf4, a move that went unnoticed in Chris Ward's ChessPublishing annotations to this game.

They drew their games but this does not necessarily mean that Black has an easy game OTB.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #16 - 12/12/13 at 13:37:01
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Thanks so much! Smiley
  
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LostTactic
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #15 - 12/12/13 at 13:17:50
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This is the link to the site: http://tcec.chessdom.com/superfinal.php you need to select game 47 in the drop down menu.

Below is the game:

[Event "nTCEC - Superfinal - Season 2"]
[Site "http://www.tcec-chess.net"]
[Date "2013.12.01"]
[Round "47.1"]
[White "Stockfish 191113"]
[Black "Komodo 1142"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Variant "normal"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Nc6 7. f3 Bg7 8. Qd2
O-O 9. g4 Be6 10. Nxe6 fxe6 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Be2 Qc8 13. h4 Nfd7 14. h5 Nc4
15. Bxc4 Qxc4 16. hxg6 hxg6 17. f4 Bxc3 18. bxc3 Qxa2 19. Qh2 Kf7 20. Qh7+ Ke8
21. e5 dxe5 22. Qxg6+ Kd8 23. Qd3 Qa1+ 24. Kd2 Qa4 25. fxe5 Kc7 26. Qd4 Qa6
27. Ra1 Qc6 28. Rh7 Rad8 29. Rxe7 Kc8 30. Kc1 Qb5 31. Qb4 Qe2 32. Bd4 Rf1+
33. Kb2 Rxa1 34. Kxa1 Qxc2 35. Bxa7 Qd1+ 36. Kb2 Rh8 37. Bf2 Qe2+ 38. Kb3 Qd1+
39. Kb2 Qe2+ 40. Kb3 Qd1+ 1/2-1/2
  
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Bibs
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #14 - 12/12/13 at 12:32:44
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LostTactic wrote on 12/12/13 at 11:35:23:
In the process of downloading them. Nielsen was the big draw for me, interested to see what he recommends in the 9.g4 variation. Black seems to be doing terribly there atm, I'm guessing he'll recommend Komodo's 14...Nc4 from the TCEC event.


Hi, can you give us a link to the Komodo game pls? Thanks!
  
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LostTactic
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #13 - 12/12/13 at 11:35:23
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In the process of downloading them. Nielsen was the big draw for me, interested to see what he recommends in the 9.g4 variation. Black seems to be doing terribly there atm, I'm guessing he'll recommend Komodo's 14...Nc4 from the TCEC event.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #12 - 12/12/13 at 07:59:57
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Bibs wrote on 12/11/13 at 23:29:07:
Not entirely sure I agree re 0-0-0 being readily covered 'succinctly' though. With the Kb1, Qe1 stuff too. And the big challenge of taking on d5. Looks good, we'll see!
Festive regards,
B


Yeah, you're completely right. It's been so long since I've not played 2...Nc6 and 4...e5 that I forgot about all of the lines except the most important one!
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #11 - 12/12/13 at 07:50:21
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TonyRo wrote on 12/11/13 at 15:02:44:
I'll be very interested to download these. Before my Kalashnikov renaissance, I only played the Dragon, and I scored really well.

My problem with the Dragon at the moment is that if after 9.O-O-O, the best Black has is to suffer in these endings after 12...Nxc3 or 12...Nxd4, then I'm not particularly interested. At least 12...e5 kept some dynamism in the position.

I will likely still pay the high cost for both of these, because I'm a complete sucker.  Grin


I completly agree, I have about the same story only that I turned to Caro Kann and not Kalashnikov.
Bc4 yugoslav is also a bit tricky to play against I one wants to win since there are several long forced draws.
  
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #10 - 12/11/13 at 23:29:07
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TonyRo wrote on 12/11/13 at 19:59:59:
It may well be that 9.Bc4 was given a DVD because of the huge amount of theory that's built up behind it. It seems easier to cover 9.g4 and 9.O-O-O relatively succinctly.


I think that is probably the case. Just a lot of 'stuff' there in the Soltis (...h5). Deep and complex. I think that is fair enough really.
No one disagrees about 0-0-0 being a major challenge of course. And yes, the line gewgaw notes is an issue to be dealt with.
Not entirely sure I agree re 0-0-0 being readily covered 'succinctly' though. With the Kb1, Qe1 stuff too. And the big challenge of taking on d5. Looks good, we'll see!
Festive regards,
B
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #9 - 12/11/13 at 19:59:59
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It may well be that 9.Bc4 was given a DVD because of the huge amount of theory that's built up behind it. It seems easier to cover 9.g4 and 9.O-O-O relatively succinctly.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #8 - 12/11/13 at 19:36:06
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TonyRo wrote on 12/11/13 at 15:02:44:
I'll be very interested to download these. Before my Kalashnikov renaissance, I only played the Dragon, and I scored really well.

My problem with the Dragon at the moment is that if after 9.O-O-O, the best Black has is to suffer in these endings after 12...Nxc3 or 12...Nxd4, then I'm not particularly interested. At least 12...e5 kept some dynamism in the position.

I will likely still pay the high cost for both of these, because I'm a complete sucker.  Grin



Yes, I was a little surprised Nielsen considers 9.Bc4 the main line since for years I've observed some strong players commenting that 9.0-0-0 is the strongest approach.

Also, this move gives good results FROM STRONG PLAYERS WHO ARE VERY KNOWN, LOL.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #7 - 12/11/13 at 15:02:44
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I'll be very interested to download these. Before my Kalashnikov renaissance, I only played the Dragon, and I scored really well.

My problem with the Dragon at the moment is that if after 9.O-O-O, the best Black has is to suffer in these endings after 12...Nxc3 or 12...Nxd4, then I'm not particularly interested. At least 12...e5 kept some dynamism in the position.

I will likely still pay the high cost for both of these, because I'm a complete sucker.  Grin
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #6 - 12/11/13 at 14:35:31
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I am more intrested of this disc becouse I have lots of Dragon discs and books not becouse I intend to play it more often.
These days I only play Dragon in team matches if my captain orders me to, otherwise I play Caro Kann.
This stratey work out well last season and also this far this season, except that I not met open Sicilian yet but got a draw in an anti sicilian vs slightly higher rated in the onlly  game I met 1 e4.

If an opening is bad becouse player X lost in it, nobody would play Ruy Lopes as white since Anand lost with it.


  
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Re: Two New Titles in the Dragon by Nielsen
Reply #5 - 12/11/13 at 13:19:19
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I doubt if anyone can refute the assertion that you consider it a dubious opening. Unless you've changed your mind of course Smiley

If we all stopped playing openings in which Van Wely had lost horribly to top players there wouldn't be very much left!
  
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