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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C48-C49: Spanish Four Knights question (Read 19939 times)
bragesjo
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Re: C48-C49: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #20 - 01/14/14 at 10:43:27
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Othy wrote on 01/14/14 at 00:33:27:
I just decided at the turn of the new year to also give the Four Knights a try. I don't necessarily expect superior theoretical status compared to my old Italian, but I shared the suspicion that at the sub-master level there is very little theoretical knowledge among my opposition, which should grant good practical chances in many cases. I also feel as though there are few ways for Black to truly create dynamic potential, which leaves the pleasant option of simple equal play if frustrating a significantly higher rated player is the order of the day.

I ordered Obodchuk's book, but I wasn't planning to play 5.Bc4 against the Rubinstein anyway. Does his other analysis seem to be holding up well? In my preliminary blitz games 4...d6 and 4...Bc5 have been common.

Lilov also has a Fritz Trainer on the Four Knights. I'll look around the forums to see if there's an associated topic for his coverage.


I have not discovered any analiticall errors in the other chapters in Obadchuks boook.
Lakdawalas book is bit newer, and has also some newer game references and maybee also more objective and also covers Scotch four knihgts and also Gleks g3 system.
  
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Re: C48-C49: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #19 - 01/14/14 at 00:33:27
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I just decided at the turn of the new year to also give the Four Knights a try. I don't necessarily expect superior theoretical status compared to my old Italian, but I shared the suspicion that at the sub-master level there is very little theoretical knowledge among my opposition, which should grant good practical chances in many cases. I also feel as though there are few ways for Black to truly create dynamic potential, which leaves the pleasant option of simple equal play if frustrating a significantly higher rated player is the order of the day.

I ordered Obodchuk's book, but I wasn't planning to play 5.Bc4 against the Rubinstein anyway. Does his other analysis seem to be holding up well? In my preliminary blitz games 4...d6 and 4...Bc5 have been common.

Lilov also has a Fritz Trainer on the Four Knights. I'll look around the forums to see if there's an associated topic for his coverage.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #18 - 01/11/14 at 12:20:58
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katar wrote on 12/20/13 at 19:28:38:

(1) 5.0-0.  I like this move.  You get a kind of Philidor, Hanham position after Black plays c6, d6, Qc7.  Check out the 1.e4e5 "Dangerous Weapons" book for a full chapter on it.  Also look here:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2006/07/sutovskys-anti-rubinste...


Yesterday my copy of the Dangerous Weapons book finnaly arrived and I this looks very interesting. I also liked the link, so I will probebly play this next time I face Nd4, maybee no theoretical advantage but black has a cramped position and problems to activeate the Bishops. Many thanks!
  
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Re: C48-C49: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #17 - 01/04/14 at 19:02:46
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Frankly speaking, d6 is a very common move.
Bc5 is also very common.
a6 have I never met yet.

Unpin line have I never met yet, the closest I got was when  a FM played Ne7 instead of De7,
I also played some games when different opponents takes at c3 before I have played d3.
Bd7 have I met a couple of times as well.
  
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Re: C48-C49: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #16 - 01/04/14 at 18:46:28
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I would have thought that some players might know of the Metger Unpin (an old classical thing, and still a main line) even if they hardly know anything else of the Four Knights.  I wonder how common such replies as 4...d6 and 4...a6 are among "club players."
  
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bragesjo
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Re: C48-C49: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #15 - 01/04/14 at 17:37:34
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Now I have finnaly got some time to computer check Odadchuks Bc4 vs Rubenstein counter attack and my conclusion is that Bc4 is playable if a draw is an accetable resultat since black can force a draw if he wants and Obadchuks white improvment leeds to a black advantage accordning to Houdini 4, white is an exchange up but black has a strong attack.

There are other lines as well that are sharp but drawish if black finds the right moves.

I have also tried four knights in some internet blitz games  as well as in 2 real over the board long games and no opponent has so far showed any theroetical knowlede at all.

I ordered the Dangerous Weapons book when this thread was started but is has still not arrived yet.
  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #14 - 12/24/13 at 13:18:24
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maybe 10.a3 Bxc3+ 11.bxc3 a6 is best for black after all, black has Nxd4 ideas if white castles (as in 12.Bc4 b5 13.Bd3 O-O 14.O-O Nxd4)
  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #13 - 12/24/13 at 12:05:30
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About 4.. Bc5, the two books recommends different options.

Obodchuk recommends tony37s line claiming += in hes analys of 10 a3.

Lakdawala recommends 5 0-0 instead and only after 0-0 is goes Nxe5 writing that white scores 61% from this position.

Personally I am not that fond of statistics since there are lies, damned lies and statistics. I think blacks position are fully playable in both lines.
  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #12 - 12/24/13 at 08:10:19
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Anonymous3 wrote on 12/24/13 at 01:23:38:
tony37 wrote on 12/21/13 at 17:26:13:
[quote author=002F2E2F382C2E343272410 link=1387566817/7#7 date=1387646007]
I think white is still better after 4.Bb5 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 Bd6 7.f4 Nc6 8.e5 Bb4 9.exf6 Qxf6 10.a3 (as Kaufman more or less suggests)

It would be good if you could back this up with some analysis. I don't see how White is better after 10...Ba5 or 10...Bxc3.

mind you I'm only talking about a slight advantage
after 10...Bxc3 white has the bishop pair and those doubled pawns aren't really weak, as usual in the four knights
10...Ba5 11.Be3 O-O 12.O-O Bxc3 13.bxc3 is a better version of this (for black) because the white bishop isn't well placed on e3 and now I have for example 13...d5 14.Qf3 Ne7 15.Bd2 Bf5 16.Bd3 Rad8 17.Rae1 Nc6 18.Re3
17...Qd6 has been played in a correspondence game but white has something after 18.Bxf5 Nxf5 19.g4 Ne7 20.f5
I've played a correspondence game in this myself some time ago and played 17...Nc8 but getting a draw wasn't so obvious
  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #11 - 12/24/13 at 01:23:38
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tony37 wrote on 12/21/13 at 17:26:13:
[quote author=002F2E2F382C2E343272410 link=1387566817/7#7 date=1387646007]
I think white is still better after 4.Bb5 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 Bd6 7.f4 Nc6 8.e5 Bb4 9.exf6 Qxf6 10.a3 (as Kaufman more or less suggests)

It would be good if you could back this up with some analysis. I don't see how White is better after 10...Ba5 or 10...Bxc3.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #10 - 12/21/13 at 17:28:27
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Anonymous3 wrote on 12/21/13 at 17:13:27:
bragesjo wrote on 12/20/13 at 19:13:37:
I got a vision and bought two books about Four Knigts game, an opening I had never played before as either side. Rigtht now I play d3  based Ruy Lopez.

I was thinking about the Rubinsteins Nd4 variation, I clearly favor white in the alternatives.

I think 4...Bc5 (recommended in "The Kaufman Repertoire for Black and White") and 4...Bd6 (recommended in "The Chess Advantage for Black and White") are good lines for Black. Kaufman says that "I expect 4.Bc5 to become the main line of the Four Knights , and 4.Bb5 to lose popularity"


I was a bit unclear, I meant personal preference not any form of theoretical edge, I would not even rate symmetrical as a large edge either.
Additionelly d6 is also playable when d4 transposes to Stenitz defence of Ruy Lopez.
  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #9 - 12/21/13 at 17:26:13
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Anonymous3 wrote on 12/21/13 at 17:13:27:
bragesjo wrote on 12/20/13 at 19:13:37:
I got a vision and bought two books about Four Knigts game, an opening I had never played before as either side. Rigtht now I play d3  based Ruy Lopez.

I was thinking about the Rubinsteins Nd4 variation, I clearly favor white in the alternatives.

I think 4...Bc5 (recommended in "The Kaufman Repertoire for Black and White") and 4...Bd6 (recommended in "The Chess Advantage for Black and White") are good lines for Black. Kaufman says that "I expect 4.Bc5 to become the main line of the Four Knights , and 4.Bb5 to lose popularity"

I think white is still better after 4.Bb4 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 Bd6 7.f4 Nc6 8.e5 Bb4 9.exf6 Qxf6 10.a3 (as Kaufman more or less suggests)
  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #8 - 12/21/13 at 17:23:48
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/21/13 at 16:28:44:
katar wrote on 12/20/13 at 19:28:38:
Obodchuk admits this where he says that he omitted the best play for both sides because if he were to publish the line, it would not be playable for White anymore.


Really, am I reading that correctly?  Obodchuk writes a book on the Four Knights, admits that 5.Bc4 is unsound, knows why, but just doesn't show the reader the line at all?  Why would someone buy the book, then?  What else has he omitted?


Actually the game Sutovsky - Naiditsch Wijk aan Zeee II 2010 begins with this words

"The very game which induced the author to write this book! I very much wanted to work out what was realliy happening in this game, but alas this proved to be an impossible dream..

Many of the variation and assesments in the following notes are taken from Sutovskys  annotations in 64 -Chess review no 3 2010"

The funny thing is that several games earlier he had covered 10 h3 Bxf3 11 gxf3 c6 12 f4!? Maybee he intended it as food for thougtht.

At move 14 he writes "Sutovsky considers 14 .. 0-0-0 stronger without givning any variations: '.. White has a whole hosts of tempting continuations. However I fear the detailed analysis
of the position would preclude playing the variation the variation in the future, so I will leave the reader to work out for himself the rich variaty of possible lines'.

The author of the present book has an other reason for modesty, attempting to research such variation would be impossible to pick put the most senseble ones.
The number of striking possibiletys for both sides, at every move, defies belif, but does not help the assesment. To give any kind of more or less complete analysis of this position would requere a separet book.

Here I will only give one line of my analysis witch, with a great deal of caution, I would describe as the mainline"

After that there follows several pages full of lines.
« Last Edit: 12/21/13 at 19:47:14 by bragesjo »  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #7 - 12/21/13 at 17:13:27
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bragesjo wrote on 12/20/13 at 19:13:37:
I got a vision and bought two books about Four Knigts game, an opening I had never played before as either side. Rigtht now I play d3  based Ruy Lopez.

I was thinking about the Rubinsteins Nd4 variation, I clearly favor white in the alternatives.

I think 4...Bc5 (recommended in "The Kaufman Repertoire for Black and White") and 4...Bd6 (recommended in "The Chess Advantage for Black and White") are good lines for Black. Kaufman says that "I expect 4.Bc5 to become the main line of the Four Knights , and 4.Bb5 to lose popularity"
  
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Re: Spanish Four Knights question
Reply #6 - 12/21/13 at 16:28:44
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katar wrote on 12/20/13 at 19:28:38:
Obodchuk admits this where he says that he omitted the best play for both sides because if he were to publish the line, it would not be playable for White anymore.


Really, am I reading that correctly?  Obodchuk writes a book on the Four Knights, admits that 5.Bc4 is unsound, knows why, but just doesn't show the reader the line at all?  Why would someone buy the book, then?  What else has he omitted?
  
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